eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)

[hozn]

@dkel 129713 wrote:

I didn’t say we should stop keeping score. It’s like National Bike Challenge; they keep score. Like I said, it’s somewhat of a semantic point, but perhaps it will keep everyone from feeling slighted one way or another, and shift the focus to achievement instead of besting one another.

So keep score but the scores don’t matter and it isn’t a competition? I don’t see the point to the competition. It is basically everyone on the slacker team?

[dkel]

@hozn 129714 wrote:

So keep score but the scores don’t matter and it isn’t a competition? I don’t see the point to the competition. It is basically everyone on the slacker team?

Yes and no. Everyone who wants to challenge themselves to do the riding-all-winter thing would be on a team of like-minded individuals, striving to get the most out of their winter riding at whatever level they can contribute, without feeling like it’s a win-or-lose scenario. Slackers would still be viable, assuming they would be interested in playing along without striving. The scores are a metric to measure—and even compare—achievement, but not for keeping score in a game, per se (like I said, it’s a semantic point).

Maybe this is all stupid. I’m just trying to find a way that we might change the mindset a little, so there isn’t so much “I’m competing, so your miles don’t count,” and “I’m not competing, but I quit if my miles don’t count.”

[DismalScientist]

I’m beginning to miss the crosswalk discussions of old.

[dkel]

@DismalScientist 129716 wrote:

I’m beginning to miss the crosswalk discussions of old.

How so? This thread provides the perfect opportunity for you to be a curmudgeon.

[Arlingtonrider]

Never mind.

[Vicegrip]

How about we not worry about the little stuff and do things that make winter riding a bit less cold and gray? Let’s make teams that are about even with some folks that ride lots, some folks that ride steady and some folks that want to have a reason to ride more. To win you do what you are already doing but just a bit more. Oh wait, we have that already.

All the chatting and conversation is fine, it does nothing to diminish the true fun and laughs from this silly winter game. Kudos to those that got it started and those that are keeping it going.

[Steve O]

ebike – short for electric bicycle
bicycle – created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

Repeat: bi – meaning 2

How about a rule that requires your “bicycle” to have 2 (+/- 1) wheels. That will allow unicycles and those weird, 3-wheeled recumbent thingies.

Or maybe even 3-wheelers shouldn’t count. After all, part of the adventure of Freezing Saddles is the whole trying-to-stay-upright challenge presented by treacherous trail conditions. I doubt the ELF has ever gone done on the Lyon Village switchback because of wet leaves. Or has to even slow down on the Trollheim, other than to navigate the corner.

So my proposal is your “bicycle” must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you’re in. ELFman, you’re out.

[SolarBikeCar]

@Steve O 129725 wrote:

ebike – short for electric bicycle
bicycle – created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

Repeat: bi – meaning 2

How about a rule that requires your “bicycle” to have 2 (+/- 1) wheels. That will allow unicycles and those weird, 3-wheeled recumbent thingies.

Or maybe even 3-wheelers shouldn’t count. After all, part of the adventure of Freezing Saddles is the whole trying-to-stay-upright challenge presented by inclement trail conditions. I doubt the ELF has ever gone done on the Lyon Village switchback because of wet leaves. Or has to even slow down on the Trollheim, other than to navigate the corner.

So my proposal is your “bicycle” must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you’re in. ELFman, you’re out.

The efforts people will go to feed bigotry. … Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails. So sad. Really sad.
What a great first hand illustration of what woman and African Americans experienced trying to play golf at a country club.

[hozn]

@SolarBikeCar 129734 wrote:

The efforts people will go to feed bigotry. … Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails. So sad. Really sad.
What a great first hand illustration of what woman and African Americans experienced trying to play golf at a country club.

This is a profoundly apt comparison. The deep injustice that some privileged white IT middle manager can’t drive his electric car down the bike path because it is more convenient than driving on the road. Oh wait, but he does it anyway because surely rules don’t apply to him. Now he is bitter because he isn’t welcome to motor his enclosed vehicle in a winter riding competition. Yeah, I can see how that oppression rivals the systematic denial of basic human rights based on race, sex, religion.

Man up, dude.

And maybe a moderator can remove solarbikecar, who is now officially just a troll.

[ShawnoftheDread]

I think we’re heading toward my solution, offered roughly three dozen pages ago. You people really should listen to me more.

Yeah, I said you people. Crazy cyclists.

[vern]

Hozn’s “Now just a troll” assessment is rather generous in regard to timing.

[Anonymous]

@sjclaeys 129695 wrote:

The argument for fully including ebikes (not just in the bunch o’ slackers, which I think would be fine), seems to be: 1) FS is not an athletic competition and the points are meaningless, so 2) the miles and time riding an ebike should be included in determining the number of points that an ebike rider accumulates versus others not riding ebikes. If the points and the competition are so meaningless, why is it so important to include points from riding an ebike (or other motor-assisted vehicle)?

No, my argument would be that there is a wide range of how challenging it is for different people (taking account ALL of the challenges of “riding your bike outside in the winter” which is NOT just about physical strength and stamina but includes things like how much free time you have, what the infrastructure for your commute is like, the quality/quantity of bike(s) and gear you are able to buy, and mostly the mental decision to just get out there and ride), and inclusion of e-assist in the mix shifts the individual challenge a negligible amount in comparison, to not create a meaningful or unfair advantage, and that in the absence of a compellingly unfair advantage, more inclusion is better.

1) Person who has a light, fast, comfortable road bike for long weekend rides AND a winter commuter with a spare wheelset for studded tires, AND a cargo bike for hauling stuff requirements AND the highest quality winter clothing and rain gear AND a commute that is safe and navigable through most of the winter AND a job with an office or locker to stash riding gear once there AND has plenty of free time to ride AND is physically very fit and strong, AND has been riding through winter conditions for a decade and knows how to handle all the various weather and road conditions vs.
2) Person who has one bike, one wheelset, limited clothing options, is a single parent of 3 kids that have 27 different activities every evening and weekend, and works long hours, and has a commute with sketchy bike infrastructure especially in dark or slick conditions, and no personal cleanup or storage space once there, and is not the physically strongest person, and is a relatively new rider who is clueless about dressing for different temps and how to handle slick roads and trails.

Earning 100 points is a lot more difficult for rider 2 than rider 1. Addition of an e-assist bike is not going to move the needle for an individual rider just all that much in comparison to the full range of abilities and circumstances of all freezing saddles riders. While I am admittedly guessing and may be stereotyping, I am guessing that most of the people totally against ebikes are closer to person 1 than person 2. I’d ask that you try to give some thought, with an open mind, as to why any of things on my list that you may benefit from is ok but a little extra oomph on an uphill from an e-assist is unfair. We are not racing each other up hills for extra points, so what does it really matter in relation to this game if the guy on the ebike gets up the hill 10 seconds faster?

I actually don’t think this is primarily an athletic or physical competition** so much as a mental challenge to just get out there and go. I expect that this upcoming year, my points are going to be limited by things other than my physical abilities. I am *physically able* to ride 150 miles a week, probably more. I did it for most of the summer with no ill effects and even during the summer was limited as much by my willingness to devote more time to riding than by my physical ability. Knock 60 miles a week off that number, though, since September, simply because my commuting route is scary and I’m too chicken to do it in the dark. Not a physical limitation. Knock some more off going forward because I’m a baby about the cold and don’t have skills or gear to ride on snow or ice. Still nothing an ebike would help. I’d guess there are more people who will be like me and limited by time, motivation, and logistics more than by physical ability.

And the game is deliberately designed to offer all participants an equal shot at being on the winning team and to allow any rider to make a meaningful contribution to the team effort just by riding their bike a short distance on most days, regardless of physical ability. Two years ago when I was on the winning team, it is true that we would not have won if Subby had not turned himself into some kind of crazy mileage-making machine (or if consularrider hadn’t put in his consistent high miles), but it is also true that we wouldn’t have won if all the rest of us hadn’t increased our miles and days well above our normal rides, which again was not so much about pushing our physical limits as it was about the mental decision to just get out there and go, which would not have been significantly different with an e-bike.

**Edit to add: to be clear, I do think it’s a competition, which is why letting people be on teams and score points matters. I just do not think it is primarily an athletic or physical competition (there is a physical component, but also many other components) such that it is such a big deal if people’s equipment gives their physical abilities a bit of a boost.

[Steve O]

@Steve O 129725 wrote:

bicycle – created from bi, meaning 2, and cycle from the Greek kyklos, meaning wheel

So my proposal is your “bicycle” must have 2 wheels or fewer to count for miles in BAFS. dasgeh, you’re in. ELFman, you’re out.

@SolarBikeCar 129734 wrote:

Oh snap, Steve, the ELF has 3 wheels so your attempt to justify targeted exclusion fails.

Huh?

[peterw_diy]

@Steve O 129758 wrote:

Huh?

The Ignore List is your friend.

[DismalScientist]

Mopeds, motorcycles and Segways have two wheels. That doesn’t make them bicycles.

I wouldn’t object to tricycles or old, rusty 1940’s pedal cars being used in Freezing Saddles.

[Author]

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