eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)

[dkel]

@cvcalhoun 129599 wrote:

I’ve had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don’t know the physics, but I have had the experience.

F=MA. Now you know the physics.

[jrenaut]

@cvcalhoun 129599 wrote:

I’ve had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don’t know the physics, but I have had the experience.

I did a trailer for a while until the kids outgrew it, then went longtail. The trailer is much better at red lights because the two wheels support the lateral weight. The longtail is better moving because you’re just pulling weight, not dealing with weight plus flex in the plastic connector and extra rolling resistance from two extra tires. The longtail is tougher on your upper body, too – your shoulders get a workout keeping it upright – but overall, I find the longtail easier. YMMV.

[cvcalhoun]

@dkel 129601 wrote:

F=MA. Now you know the physics.

All right, when the kid is on the bike, you’re in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That’s unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

[BTC_DC]

Perhaps just have a restriction against “semi-recumbent electric trike with a plastic body resembling a velomobile that has a built in solar panel” with “Adjustable Comfort Seat with Back Rest” and may not exceed the width of a MUP lane?

Not sure how that would work on the registration form…

[Bruno Moore]

I love pedal assist bikes. Anyone who tells you they’re not “real” bikes needs to take a joy ride on a Faraday. Anyone who thinks it’s cheating to use pedal assist needs to borrow an EdgeRunner 9e or 10e and three kids and get schlepping up to Marist Hall at the top of CUA’s campus. Anyone who thinks a 13-pound carbon Wunderfahrrad or custom-made titanium blingbike with electronic shifting, Garmin, and/or power meter is more sporting or honest than a fully loaded Spicy Curry or retrofitted bakfiets should probably have their head examined after they pull it out of the dark, stinky place they’ve been keeping it.

[dkel]

@cvcalhoun 129603 wrote:

All right, when the kid is on the bike, you’re in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That’s unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

As I said, “aside from issues of balance.” I will point out, though, that in cornering, there is negligible—if any—effort in ”leaning the bike,” as the leaning offsets the angular momentum, otherwise you’d fall over instead of balancing.

I’ve ridden my commute with a backpack and with panniers. Same route, same junk to carry. I felt like carrying the weight on my body was more work than carrying it on the bike. Others feel the opposite (we’ve had that discussion in the backpack thread). I’m not fooling myself that one required a substantially greater effort, though, as the overall mass was the same. Also, maneuverability issues with a large trailer like Rod’s are significant, and the increased drag of having more rolling resistance from additional wheels can be taken into account.

[83b]

@Rod Smith 129585 wrote:

Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!

I’ve actually ridden it for the last two years. In fact, two years ago we rode to and from the final happy hour together (I was the dude in the suit)! In terms of the stuff, there’s actually quite a bit of empty space on a daily basis, which leaves plenty of spare room for cargo when it’s called for. The back left pannier holds the motor’s controller, most of the wiring, and bike repair kit. The trunk bag holds the battery. The right pannier holds my rain gear and some grocery bags. The saddle bag is on a Nitto quick release and is basically a briefcase. It’s got my lunch, work papers, iPad, keys, etc. The front porteur bag is usually empty for the commute, but gets used frequently to haul groceries, take-out, other shopping and mail/packages. The whole thing was my attempt to press a frame I love and can’t bear to part with into service as a cargo bike. It works well enough. And while it’s got the cool YBB suspension design, it’s actually the Litespeed version from 1996–when I spent all my savings from working in a shop on it.

In terms of the larger question of where to draw the line on ebikes (if, in fact, a line is gonna get drawn), I have competing thoughts. If we’re going to draw lines based on equipment, my bike is probably a reasonable place to draw it (whether I’m on the “in” or “out” side being up to folk’s judgment). I think that my bike is more bike-like than vespa-like–an opinion I’ve formed with no conflicts of interest, I assure you!–but if ridden by a hooligan it’s performance is well outside the capabilities of most cyclists. And if ridden by someone who isn’t fair minded, it could be used to quickly rack up significant mileage for little effort (despite the fact it would be interminably boring and easier to just fake Strava entries).

In favor of allowing me/my bike:

• It’s built on a bicycle frame using bicycle parts;
• It’s light enough that I carry it up and down my 10 front steps in & out of the house every day without rupturing a disk;
• It leaves me fully exposed to the elements;
• Edit to add: It rides on bike infrastructure without conflict, and cars certainly view me with the same disdain they have for other bikes;
• It meets the federal standards for ebikes (when the governor is active);
• It doesn’t really encourage logging extra mileage. I’m going to make the same trips using that bike whether participating or not, since it’s my primary transportation;
• It’s far less scooter/motorcycle-like than this other guy in DC (not necessarily relevant, but I also scrupulously obey traffic laws).
• My stats for both of the past two years were below middling. My only real contribution to a team’s points was due to my consistency riding almost every day, which is why I had fun participating. The competition kept me from ever bagging and taking the metro or from not going in to the office on snowy “work from home” days. If I go for a weekend recreational ride, I’m going to take a “real” bike;
• I don’t ride noticeably differently from other cyclists. Most people are surprised when I point out that it’s an ebike. I use the throttle to accelerate from a stop more quickly and easily than most cyclists, but once the momentum is established I tend to drop the throttle and continue on leg power. Unless I’m in a hurry for some specific reason, I’m not out blowing past “real” cyclists like they’re standing still. My commute is typically the best part of my day, why would I rush it!?!
• I enjoy participating in the camaraderie and discussions around the competition. The past two years I learned some great tips on riding in adverse weather from participating. For example, on the forum’s recommendation I picked up a set of moosemitts and am looking forward to avoiding numb fingers and borderline-frostbite this year.

Facts cutting against allowing me/my bike:

• If so inclined, I could ride substantially differently from other cyclists; the bike is controlled by a throttle, and is powerful enough to be “driven” from stopped to full speed with no pedal input;
• With the governor disabled, it can exceed federal ebike standards (the vendor’s site suggests it can produce 1,200 Watts at peak load and can sustain a cruising speed of just over 27.5mph);
• To the extent people want to judge reasons for using an ebike, mine are lacking. I’m able bodied and don’t have that far to go to work — ~5miles. I just choose to ride in my work clothes (a full suit & tie) because it’s what works best for me and because I frequently have to use my bike to jump between meetings around town and/or to haul cargo;
• Bikes with similar motor kits and capabilities resemble, to me at least, scooters more than they do bikes (jump to minute 4 of the video).

Having typed through my thoughts in a meandering way, for which I apologize, I can totally see a good argument for excluding me based on the potential of my equipment, but still think it would be reasonable to let me participate based on how I actually use it. Perhaps something like allowing ebikes to participate with an admonishment: “Thou Shalt Ride Like Cyclists!” or something of that sort? Lumping us onto a single team, such as the Slackers, might also work? To help folks decide I’ll also try to be at Swings for the next two Friday Coffee Clubs, instead of hitting my snooze button like usual, so folks can see and ride it if they want.

[peterw_diy]

@sjclaeys 129597 wrote:

When you are ready to actually respond to a suggestion offered in good will, let me know.

I take it you didn’t like my attempt at a joke.

Am I only allowed to “respond” to your suggestion with humorless prose?

Ok, I’ll try. From what I can tell, over half the points scored are scored on road bikes weighing less than 25 pounds. And most with ebikes here are not only riding fewer miles, but doing it with a lot of sometimes squiggly cargo. With the current demographics there’s no need to banish ebikes to the slacker pit. This isn’t boxing or wrestling with pre-match weigh-ins. Even if we cared about fairness (shouldn’t Rod outscore Eric considering his trailer weight?), there’s no need to treat ebike riders here as if they’re using EPO.

[Rod Smith]

@jrenaut 129602 wrote:

I did a trailer for a while until the kids outgrew it, then went longtail. The trailer is much better at red lights because the two wheels support the lateral weight. The longtail is better moving because you’re just pulling weight, not dealing with weight plus flex in the plastic connector and extra rolling resistance from two extra tires. The longtail is tougher on your upper body, too – your shoulders get a workout keeping it upright – but overall, I find the longtail easier. YMMV.

Someone showed up on a fancy cargo bike while I quickly loaded 22 six-packs of beer and was on my way. I don’t know how many he took. What were we talking about? Oh yeah, professional cargo bikers should allowed to play!

Is ELFman going to beat Eric Williams for most miles? Matt Aune for highest average speed? Yeah probably but I know Eric and Matt don’t really care about that. Will The ELF driver lead his team to victory? That would be a shame.

[Rod Smith]

@cvcalhoun 129603 wrote:

All right, when the kid is on the bike, you’re in effect lifting the kid every time you come back from leaning the bike one direction or the other (e.g. to turn). That’s unnecessary with a trailer. Is that enough science for you?

Cargo bikes are faster than bike/trailer but may have lower capacity.

[cvcalhoun]

@peterw_diy 129608 wrote:

From what I can tell, over half the points scored are scored on road bikes weighing less than 25 pounds… Even if we cared about fairness (shouldn’t Rod outscore Eric considering his trailer weight?), there’s no need to treat ebike riders here as if they’re using EPO.

And here I was thinking that since I ride a 64-lb. bike, I should get credit for at least twice the miles of someone riding a 25-lb. bike!

(No, that was not serious, in case it’s not obvious.)

[Rod Smith]

@83(b) 129607 wrote:

I’ve actually ridden it for the last two years. In fact, two years ago we rode to and from the final happy hour together (I was the dude in the suit)!

I know who you are Ryan but I wasn’t sure you used that bike for the comp.

[SolarBikeCar]

The survey, the discussion…. Just too funny. Hilarious. I can’t stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

[BTC_DC]

@SolarBikeCar 129613 wrote:

The survey, the discussion…. Just too funny. Hilarious. I can’t stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

On the same page then with respect to your justifications for taking the LEF on multi-use paths.

[Rod Smith]

@SolarBikeCar 129613 wrote:

The survey, the discussion…. Just too funny. Hilarious. I can’t stop laughing and take this vote seriously.

How many miles will you ride this winter? Planning an epic for January 1st? Give it your best shot. I will crush you.

[Author]

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