eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)
Our Community › Forums › Freezing Saddles Winter Riding Competition › eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)
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Tania.
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December 10, 2015 at 9:29 pm #917658
cvcalhoun
ParticipantThis poll is intended only to guide the organizers in determining whether there is a consensus on the issue. No guarantees are made that we will follow the majority vote, if no actual consensus emerges.
Please read the discussion before voting. Three people so far have wanted to change their votes after reading the discussion. If this happens with you, please say so in a comment so that we can keep track.
Someone who uses an ELF (and considers it a bicycle) has now put in a registration. I’m assuming he plans to use the ELF for his miles. We therefore need to determine what vehicles are permitted to be counted in the competition.
My own inclination is to count miles by bikes that are primarily human powered, even if they have e-assist for uphills with a heavy bike and children aboard (and remember that one of our most beloved members uses such a bike), but not to allow anything that is primarily motor-powered. However, I’m not sure how we come up with a definition that would specifically cover this distinction.
I’m therefore putting out a poll. If you want to allow miles by certain bikes with electric power but not others, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you’d use? If you want to allow bicycles that are primarily motor-powered to count, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you would use to distinguish them from motorcycles (assuming you don’t want motorcycle miles to count for Freezing Saddles)?
Note that this question deals only with which miles count, not with who is permitted to enter Freezing Saddles. Someone who wants to be on the Bunch O’ Slackers, for example, can ride anything he or she wants (including a car), because the miles don’t count anyway. And if we rule out motor-powered vehicles, someone who primarily rides a motor-powered bicycle could still participate, but only the miles on non-motor-powered vehicles would count.
December 10, 2015 at 9:41 pm #1042684dasgeh
ParticipantSo you want us to vote on the concept vaguely, without defining the distinction?
Just let people ride. This is a non-game with non-rules. And even if crazy ELF dude has registered, IIRC all the forum-ati agreed that it was great to have him out on the roads, though most objected to him on the trails.
December 10, 2015 at 9:47 pm #1042685Anonymous
Guest@cvcalhoun 129566 wrote:
I’m therefore putting out a poll. If you want to allow miles by certain bikes with electric power but not others, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you’d use? If you want to allow bicycles that are primarily motor-powered to count, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you would use to distinguish them from motorcycles (assuming you don’t want motorcycle miles to count for Freezing Saddles)?
I’d like to suggest getting some input into this part *before* putting out a poll. Some people (not me) (dasgeh, hint) could provide a more accurate definition of different types of e-bikes and how they can be ridden and you could use those definitions (and explanations of them for those of us less knowledgeable) so we can have a more informed idea of what we’re voting on.
We still have 3 weeks before January 1. There’s no rush to do a poll today.
December 10, 2015 at 9:49 pm #1042686jrenaut
ParticipantRule out any ELF miles without even getting into the motor. The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?
Is there a clear distinction between primarily human powered with motor assist, and primarily motor powered with pedaling option? For me it’s about the spirit – I want to include dasgeh, who uses e-assist because she has a giant bike full of children in a super-hilly part of VA. I do NOT want to include someone who does 80 miles a day without breaking a sweat because a motor is doing most of the work. I worry that it is tough to both make the distinction and to enforce it.
December 10, 2015 at 9:53 pm #1042687ShawnoftheDread
ParticipantCan’t we just be arbitrary and mean, and boot out anyone we don’t want in our game? (Asking for a friend.)
December 10, 2015 at 10:01 pm #1042688sjclaeys
ParticipantAs I suggested earlier, those using any motor assisted bikes or other vehicles can join the Bunch O’ Slackers. We then avoid trying to divine differences between these vehicles, avoid any unfair comparisons with those riding solely human-powered bikes, and allow those with motor assisted bikes to still join in the non-game fun.
December 10, 2015 at 10:04 pm #1042690cvcalhoun
Participant@Amalitza 129568 wrote:
I’d like to suggest getting some input into this part *before* putting out a poll. Some people (not me) (dasgeh, hint) could provide a more accurate definition of different types of e-bikes and how they can be ridden and you could use those definitions (and explanations of them for those of us less knowledgeable) so we can have a more informed idea of what we’re voting on.
We still have 3 weeks before January 1. There’s no rush to do a poll today.
Well, dasgeh among others can comment on the poll. But I’m reluctant just to ask certain individuals. There may be others in a position to comment on the distinction (and I’ve specifically asked for such comments).
If a majority believe we shouldn’t allow any miles with a vehicle with any e-assist, the definition becomes irrelevant. The same is true if a majority believe all miles should count. If e-assist vehicles are okay but not miles on motor powered vehicles, I’ll go with a consensus of people who actually ride the things as to how to define them.
I should also point out that the poll is scheduled to be up until December 24 (which is the same day registration closes). So it’s not like we’re rushing people. But if people are required to report miles on the registration form, they need to know what miles count. And for some, the definition may determine whether they participate on a team (or indeed at all).
December 10, 2015 at 10:06 pm #1042692Anonymous
Guest@jrenaut 129569 wrote:
The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?
Speaking as someone who has owned and driven a car with a broken heater through a Midwestern winter, let me assure you that you can in fact properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle.
It doesn’t help that the inside of the windshield tends to frost over unless you keep a window partly open to let the dry winter air blow over it…
December 10, 2015 at 10:06 pm #1042693Tim Kelley
ParticipantJust pointing out that with e-bikes there is a big range–a 50lbs bike with a 550 watt motor is a very different beast than a 100lbs bike with a 175 watt motor. Zoom zoom!
December 10, 2015 at 10:12 pm #1042694cvcalhoun
Participant@dasgeh 129567 wrote:
So you want us to vote on the concept vaguely, without defining the distinction?
Just let people ride. This is a non-game with non-rules. And even if crazy ELF dude has registered, IIRC all the forum-ati agreed that it was great to have him out on the roads, though most objected to him on the trails.
I would welcome guidance from you (and others who are familiar with e-bikes) on a distinction. But we did get comments to the effect that Freezing Saddles should count only exclusively human-powered miles. I disagree with that position. However, given that this is a leaderless organization, I’m not sure how to work out this issue without asking the question specifically. The best I could do was state my own position, and point out that totally ruling out e-assist would be a bad thing for “one of our most beloved members” (by which I meant you, of course, though I avoided naming either the ELF person who registered or you). This seems at least to be clear enough that so far, at least, the majority have voted in favor of allowing e-assist.
And as stated above, I’m specifically looking for comments on whether there are any limits–and if so, how to define them. I would assume we’re not counting motorcycle miles. (Although if the consensus is that we are, I’ll go with that.) But with no definition at all, I don’t know how we rule that out.
And I assume that many people on the forum would agree that it is great to have someone on a motorcycle or in a Prius out on the roads (to the extent this replaces a less fuel-efficient alternative). But this does not necessarily mean they would agree that miles on such vehicles should count for purposes of this contest.
@jrenaut 129569 wrote:
I worry that it is tough to both make the distinction and to enforce it.
As to making the decision, that’s why I’ve requested input. As to enforcing it, we already require people to exclude their own miles on a trainer. But we don’t have the capacity to enforce that, either. If we decide to exclude certain vehicles, we could handle that the same way.
@Tim Kelley 129575 wrote:
Just pointing out that with e-bikes there is a big range–a 50lbs bike with a 550 watt motor is a very different beast than a 100lbs bike with a 175 watt motor. Zoom zoom!
I agree. I’d like to include that 100 lb. bike with the 175 watt motor at a minimum. One of the reasons I put this out there was to get comments on where we draw the line (if in fact we want to draw one at all).
@ShawnoftheDread 129570 wrote:
Can’t we just be arbitrary and mean, and boot out anyone we don’t want in our game? (Asking for a friend.)
Well, anyone who is banned from this forum can’t participate, because we’ve clearly stated that this forum is to be the primary method of communication. So that rules out one of the people we don’t want in our game. But unless we are going to have a separate poll on whom to boot out (for heaven’s said, NO!!!!), I figure we should keep this discussion to counting miles, not booting people out.
December 10, 2015 at 10:32 pm #104269183b
ParticipantTo help guide the discussion, a picture of my ebike is below. It weighs maybe a bit over 60-70lbs, I’d guess is usually loaded to around 100lbs plus a portly rider, and has a 500Watt motor that can propel it to just over 25mph (I typically have it governed to 20mph). It uses a throttle, since I like to use the assist to gain speed from the frequent stops on my commute, and then once at speed is usually kept bopping along by principally human power.
I’m perfectly happy bowing out of FS this year if folks prefer a … uh, purist approach to things. And if folks decide that there’s some specific bright-line limit that works, I don’t think enforcement needs to be a concern. Those of us on the wrong side of the line would be cool with, and abide by, the consensus of the group (I say, having apparently crowned myself spokesperson for everyone who owns a kitted-out eBike). And besides, we’ve always allowed self-reported data to be counted through Strava without needing PwC to come do spot-audits.
December 10, 2015 at 10:46 pm #1042695cvcalhoun
Participant@83(b) 129577 wrote:
To help guide the discussion, a picture of my ebike is below. It weighs maybe a bit over 60-70lbs, I’d guess is usually loaded to around 100lbs plus a portly rider, and has a 500Watt motor that can propel it to just over 25mph (I typically have it governed to 20mph). It uses a throttle, since I like to use the assist to gain speed from the frequent stops on my commute, and then once at speed is usually kept bopping along by principally human power.
I’m perfectly happy bowing out of FS this year if folks prefer a … uh, purist approach to things. And if folks decide that there’s some specific bright-line limit that works, I don’t think enforcement needs to be a concern. Those of us on the wrong side of the line would be cool with, and abide by, the consensus of the group (I say, having apparently crowned myself spokesperson for everyone who owns a kitted-out eBike). And besides, we’ve always allowed self-reported data to be counted through Strava without needing PwC to come do spot-audits.
I am 100% in agreement that we don’t need an enforcement mechanism. We’ve been on the honor system for trainer miles for as long as the contest has existed, and I think we can handle any decision we make in the same manner.
And I’m in the anti-purist camp. What you’re riding looks like a bicycle to me! But as with the other area of “I know it when I see it,” it might be helpful to have at least some guidelines. I would really like to hear from anyone who rides a bike with e-assist on where an appropriate place to draw the line is.
Also, remember that there is nothing to prevent you from joining the Bunch ‘O Slackers, whose miles won’t count, even if your miles on that vehicle don’t count. There is no reason to give up the social aspects even if you’re not participating in the competitive ones.
December 10, 2015 at 11:09 pm #1042697Crickey7
Participant@cvcalhoun 129578 wrote:
What you’re riding looks like a bicycle to me!
I’m so purist, I think anything with fenders doesn’t look like a bicycle.
December 10, 2015 at 11:10 pm #1042698cvcalhoun
Participant@Crickey7 129579 wrote:
I’m so purist, I think anything with fenders doesn’t look like a bicycle.
This could end up being a very small competition!
December 11, 2015 at 1:00 am #1042700dkel
Participant@jrenaut 129569 wrote:
Rule out any ELF miles without even getting into the motor. The thing is mostly enclosed. How can you properly freeze in an enclosed vehicle?
This! Bundling against the icy blast of the polar vortex is what this thing is all about! I say the E.L.F. is O.U.T.
I’m ambivalent about the e-bike question. I think the part of me that is in opposition is experiencing mostly a sour grapes kind of feeling, which doesn’t cut it for actually voting against it in the poll (and there’s no “I’m ambivalent” option, so I haven’t voted). I expect I’ll get an e-bike when I’m old and decrepit (or really need it for whatever reason); that is a far better option than not riding anymore. On the other hand, I will say I imagine riding into a headwind probably feels very different on an e-bike: ootching up the little dial to compensate is not an option non-e-bicyclists have!
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