eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)

[cvcalhoun]

This poll is intended only to guide the organizers in determining whether there is a consensus on the issue. No guarantees are made that we will follow the majority vote, if no actual consensus emerges.

Please read the discussion before voting. Three people so far have wanted to change their votes after reading the discussion. If this happens with you, please say so in a comment so that we can keep track.

Someone who uses an ELF (and considers it a bicycle) has now put in a registration. I’m assuming he plans to use the ELF for his miles. We therefore need to determine what vehicles are permitted to be counted in the competition.

My own inclination is to count miles by bikes that are primarily human powered, even if they have e-assist for uphills with a heavy bike and children aboard (and remember that one of our most beloved members uses such a bike), but not to allow anything that is primarily motor-powered. However, I’m not sure how we come up with a definition that would specifically cover this distinction.

I’m therefore putting out a poll. If you want to allow miles by certain bikes with electric power but not others, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you’d use? If you want to allow bicycles that are primarily motor-powered to count, can you please put something in the comments about what definition you would use to distinguish them from motorcycles (assuming you don’t want motorcycle miles to count for Freezing Saddles)?

Note that this question deals only with which miles count, not with who is permitted to enter Freezing Saddles. Someone who wants to be on the Bunch O’ Slackers, for example, can ride anything he or she wants (including a car), because the miles don’t count anyway. And if we rule out motor-powered vehicles, someone who primarily rides a motor-powered bicycle could still participate, but only the miles on non-motor-powered vehicles would count.

Topic

[dkel]

@rcannon100 129583 wrote:

I always did.

…until he got booted out, apparently.

[Rod Smith]

Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!

[Rod Smith]

My other question is are you allowed to Strava that sort of activity and claim it as a “bike ride”?

[peterw_diy]

Maybe we should use a race of champions to settle this. sjclaeys rides the Bike Arlington bullet with 120 pounds of dead weight in the cargo box to simulate kids (note: some of us have logged BAFS miles with more live with than that). Tim Kelley rides sjclaeys’ bike. If sjclaeys wins, then ebikes are banned from engaging their motors for BAFS miles. Hold the race as part of Megabeth’s HP 100 ride. Sound good?

[Rod Smith]

Will ELFie be riding double centuries on the weekends if his team is in contention, or to steal Eric’s crown as top individual? Gee, I wonder who will finish with the fastest average speed? All the Strava KOMs! What’s next, allowing bike messengers to play?

[dasgeh]

My recollection (without going into the archive, but I’m sure someone will and will correct me if I’m wrong) is that we went around and around about this a year or two ago. We landed on a rough rule of thumb that ebikes that meet the definition in the federal statute are fine. And that it’s just freezing saddles, so we’re not really going to be strict about it, and bikes like the Specialized Turbo would be fine. It’s all self policed anyway. And the National Bike Challenge allows ebikes.

I also thought we had a quick exchange on this in the planning thread, where someone asked, someone else said ebikes were fine if you’re haulin’ kids, I said a brief version of the above, and rcannon said something snarky. I thought that put the issue to bed; same rules as before: ebikes are cool.

And then ELF guy showed up. Meh. If he wants to join our community, why not welcome him? Maybe we can bring him around on riding on the trails. Maybe not. Maybe he’ll buy us all a round at the happy hour.

Mostly, I’m frustrated that this is open again.

[cvcalhoun]

@Rod Smith 129585 wrote:

Did you ride that in previous Freezing Saddles? Why do you need to carry so much stuff? Moots YBB!

Last year, there was no rule about ebikes. This year, the issue was raised.

Admittedly, you’re someone who carries a lot of stuff without e-assist. But there are some who carry the weight on the bikes, rather than on trailers. And some are not thin, male, and/or under 80.

As for why, I am totally refusing to have a vote on how many children dasgeh can have!

[dasgeh]

@cvcalhoun 129591 wrote:

Last year, there was no rule about ebikes. This year, the issue was raised.

ebikes have been explicitly allowed for at least the last 2 years.

[Vicegrip]

I clicked the wrong button and voted for no e-bikes when I intended to vote for them. (darn hanging chads)

The way I look at it. My pedaling is via a meat based motor which produces heat as a byproduct of chemical combustion. This excess heat is then used to* keep the extremities warm. Less peddling = more freezing.

*Well perhaps “try and keep” would be better said.

[cvcalhoun]

@Vicegrip 129595 wrote:

I clicked the wrong button and voted for no e-bikes when I intended to vote for them. (darn hanging chads)

The way I look at it. My pedaling is via a meat based motor which produces heat as a byproduct of chemical combustion. This excess heat is then used to* keep the extremities warm. Less peddling = more freezing.

*Well perhaps “try and keep” would be better said.

I will keep in mind that we should switch your vote when we look at the final results.

[sjclaeys]

@peterw_diy 129588 wrote:

Maybe we should use a race of champions to settle this. sjclaeys rides the Bike Arlington bullet with 120 pounds of dead weight in the cargo box to simulate kids (note: some of us have logged BAFS miles with more live with than that). Tim Kelley rides sjclaeys’ bike. If sjclaeys wins, then ebikes are banned from engaging their motors for BAFS miles. Hold the race as part of Megabeth’s HP 100 ride. Sound good?

When you are ready to actually respond to a suggestion offered in good will, let me know.

[dkel]

@cvcalhoun 129591 wrote:

Admittedly, you’re someone who carries a lot of stuff without e-assist. But there are some who carry the weight on the bikes, rather than on trailers.

Aside from issues of balance, I don’t see how this makes a single bit of difference.

[cvcalhoun]

@dkel 129598 wrote:

Aside from issues of balance, I don’t see how this makes a single bit of difference.

I’ve had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don’t know the physics, but I have had the experience.

[hozn]

My personal opinion (not playing, so doesn’t count) is that ebikes are fine in the overall competition, but wouldn’t count toward any of the individual leaderboards/metrics. Basically, take Strava’s approach and exclude from leaderboards. (Incidentally, since Strava does exclude ebikes from leaderboards, they will automatically be excluded from any pointless prizes that involve Strava segments — if I understand the implementation correctly.)

I would say no to the ELF, though. Freezing Saddles is not about driving to work in an enclosed electric vehicle. Even if it might be too chilly to keep the travel mug of coffee warm all the way it work. What hardship.

Ironically, I don’t see that solarbikecar donkey on the rainy days, though maybe he was working a different schedule the past few such days.

[dkel]

@cvcalhoun 129599 wrote:

I’ve had a kid on a bike and a kid in a trailer. The trailer was barely noticeable. The kid on the bike took much more effort. I don’t know the physics, but I have had the experience.

F=MA. Now you know the physics.

[Author]

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