eBikes and electric powered vehicles (including the Elf)

[cvcalhoun]

@worktheweb 129662 wrote:

Perhaps an asterisk team would solve the issue. Not a part of the general population leaderboards but off on their own able to compare on a level playing field. Still part of the community and part of the fun. My favorite part of FS last year was all the great friends I made. I look forward to meeting even more of you this year, regardless of what powers your wheels. I don’t think we should be stopping the camaraderie that makes the competition so wonderful, but we also don’t want to make the competition meaningless. Not an easy line to walk.

I just want to clarify that even if miles on ebikes are disallowed, no one will be barred from Freezing Saddles for using an ebike. Someone who uses one some of the time, but another type of bike at other times, could still join a team, but with only miles from other bikes counting. Or if someone is a veteran, s/he could join the Bunch O’ Slackers.

I am still in favor of counting ebike miles. But even if I’m overruled, it is clear that it is ebike miles, not ebike riders, that are disallowed.

[sjclaeys]

The argument for fully including ebikes (not just in the bunch o’ slackers, which I think would be fine), seems to be: 1) FS is not an athletic competition and the points are meaningless, so 2) the miles and time riding an ebike should be included in determining the number of points that an ebike rider accumulates versus others not riding ebikes. If the points and the competition are so meaningless, why is it so important to include points from riding an ebike (or other motor-assisted vehicle)?

[dasgeh]

@cvcalhoun 129693 wrote:

I just want to clarify that even if miles on ebikes are disallowed, no one will be barred from Freezing Saddles for using an ebike. Someone who uses one some of the time, but another type of bike at other times, could still join a team, but with only miles from other bikes counting. Or if someone is a veteran, s/he could join the Bunch O’ Slackers.

I am still in favor of counting ebike miles. But even if I’m overruled, it is clear that it is ebike miles, not ebike riders, that are disallowed.

But this is just semantics. Many people mainly ride one bike. If miles from that bike aren’t allowed, why bother joining? Other people (like me) choose their bikes based on needs, not based on an arbitrary rule in this arbitrary game.

I, for one, just won’t participate if ebike miles aren’t counted, because I have enough demands juggling which bike I pic (is the bike working, will it work in these conditions, will it carry what I need it to carry).

[dasgeh]

@sjclaeys 129695 wrote:

The argument for fully including ebikes (not just in the bunch o’ slackers, which I think would be fine), seems to be: 1) FS is not an athletic competition and the points are meaningless, so 2) the miles and time riding an ebike should be included in determining the number of points that an ebike rider accumulates versus others not riding ebikes. If the points and the competition are so meaningless, why is it so important to include points from riding an ebike (or other motor-assisted vehicle)?

No. The argument in favor of allowing ebikes to play is that this is a silly game, the point of which is to build community among people who ride bikes; if we start excluding people based on athletic ability, we’re limiting that community. In fact, there’s no “we” anymore, because I am not part of this “only ride non-ebikes” group.

[S. Arlington Observer]

@dasgeh 129698 wrote:

No. The argument in favor of allowing ebikes to play is that this is a silly game, the point of which is to build community among people who ride bikes; if we start excluding people based on athletic ability, we’re limiting that community. In fact, there’s no “we” anymore, because I am not part of this “only ride non-ebikes” group.

That is a pretty compelling argument. Is there a way to change one’s vote?

[cvcalhoun]

@S. Arlington Observer 129699 wrote:

That is a pretty compelling argument. Is there a way to change one’s vote?

I’m keeping track. So far, there are two votes that need to be changed, which means we’re at 26 in favor of ebikes, 27 against. And I think my position on the issue is clear, and is even stronger if dasgeh will not participate if ebike miles are not allowed.

[Alcova cyclist]

While I agree that more rules generally equals less fun, IMO the ELF is something altogether different. I’d suggest a vehicle that:
– can go 20 mph without pedaling
– is touted by its manufacturer for its “ABS composite… that protects you from the elements”
– has a windshield, roof, and partial side-panels (doors optional)
– is called a “BikeCar” and a “mini-car” by its owner (as in “[cyclists] don’t want their status as top dog on the bike path to be demoted by the influx of mini-cars” from solarbikecar.com)
may not be in keeping with a winter bicycling game that revels in feats of suffering, strength, perseverance, and courage in the face of the worst old man winter can throw at you.

Other “regular” e-assist bikes suffer the elements just as much, and maybe more, than those on regular bikes, which I always took as the real heart of the game… When the subject of BAFS comes up with non-crazy people (i.e. no one reading this thread), they always ask about the weather I rode in, not how many miles or how fast I rode.

[sjclaeys]

I think that there is some confusion between FS being an athletic event, which it is not, and being a physical event, which it intrinsically is. Indeed, it is the physical act of riding a bicycle that is at the center of this community.

[lordofthemark]

@Alcova cyclist 129701 wrote:

While I agree that more rules generally equals less fun, IMO the ELF is something altogether different. I’d suggest a vehicle that:
– can go 20 mph without pedaling
– is touted by its manufacturer for its “ABS composite… that protects you from the elements”
– has a windshield, roof, and partial side-panels (doors optional)
– is called a “BikeCar” and a “mini-car” by its owner (as in “[cyclists] don’t want their status as top dog on the bike path to be demoted by the influx of mini-cars” from solarbikecar.com)
may not be in keeping with a winter bicycling game that revels in feats of suffering, strength, perseverance, and courage in the face of the worst old man winter can throw at you.

Other “regular” e-assist bikes suffer the elements just as much, and maybe more, than those on regular bikes, which I always took as the real heart of the game… When the subject of BAFS comes up with non-crazy people (i.e. no one reading this thread), they always ask about the weather I rode in, not how many miles or how fast I rode.

This is what I meant to say.

[hozn]

@sjclaeys 129702 wrote:

I think that there is some confusion between FS being an athletic event, which it is not, and being a physical event, which it intrinsically is. Indeed, it is the physical act of riding a bicycle that is at the center of this community.

This is a good, if subtle, distinction.

But I think it is obvious that a competition where winning means riding the farthest/most distance is about physical ability. If the point of the competition were simply to make friends, the competition would be structured differently.

Competitions need rules.

I think the problem here is that FS is becoming too democratic. The way you solve this is you just reject solarbikedonkey’s registration and you allow dasgeh and 83b because no one really cares whether their bikes have batteries. There doesn’t have to be a reason.

If there has to be a consistent rule created, though, drawing the line at e-bikes for a physical competition seems reasonable.

[dkel]

Why don’t we just change the name to Freezing Saddles Winter Riding Challenge? Then it’s not a competition at all. Teams challenge themselves to do their collective best. Individuals challenge themselves to do their personal best. Prizes are awarded to those who excel—even pointlessly, not to those who win. We are not challenging ourselves to freeze, rather we are challenging ourselves not to freeze, and thus we can stop arguing about how people decide to meet the challenge: with what ability level and what technology.

All this may be essentially another semantic nuance, but if we all focus on this being a challenge, then we are all motivated to achieve and not outdo, and we can all celebrate that.

(Huh. I think I just convinced myself to change my vote, on the e-bikes and the ELF. Didn’t see that coming.)

[dkel]

@hozn 129707 wrote:

If the point of the competition were simply to make fiends, the competition would be structured differently.

Oh, this competition makes “fiends” all right. Have you read this thread!?

[hozn]

@dkel 129709 wrote:

Oh, this competition makes “fiends” all right. Have you read this thread!?

Touche. You are on top of the spell check and grammar these days!

[hozn]

@dkel 129708 wrote:

Why don’t we just change the name to Freezing Saddles Winter Riding Challenge? Then it’s not a competition at all. Teams challenge themselves to do their collective best. Individuals challenge themselves to do their personal best.

Sure, go for it. If we stop keeping score, it certainly simplifies my life (well, my role here, anyway).

That is definitely not how this started, but if the participants want to do something different, seems like that could happen.

[dkel]

@hozn 129712 wrote:

Sure, go for it. If we stop keeping score, it certainly simplifies my life (well, my role here, anyway).

That is definitely not how this started, but if the participants want to do something different, seems like that could happen.

I didn’t say we should stop keeping score. It’s like National Bike Challenge; they keep score. Like I said, it’s somewhat of a semantic point, but perhaps it will keep everyone from feeling slighted one way or another, and shift the focus to achievement instead of besting one another.

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