ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[Raymo853]

@AFHokie 127827 wrote:

Horses can’t read…how do they know the rules?

No, but their owners, trainers, and riders (may not all be the same) should and are legally responsible for following the rules, even if they have never read them.

[Raymo853]

@DismalScientist 127832 wrote:

The poster stated it was “terrifying” riding near the ELF on the trail. I surmise the poster would find riding a bike on a busy road similarly terrifying. Personally I don’t find any of these situations terrifying.

There is a big difference between being on a typical roadway and being passed by a car (they are noisy, even the electric ones, and you expect it) and being on a bike path and being passed by an electric powered car (much quieter, not expected)

[AFHokie]

@Raymo853 127836 wrote:

No, but their owners, trainers, and riders (may not all be the same) should and are legally responsible for following the rules, even if they have never read them.

You do realize the horse has a vote in what it does and occasionally will veto the rider

[Crickey7]

I’ve now had to pay three semesters of college tuition for the eldest of three offsrping. My yardstick for “terrifying” is broken.

[mstone]

@DismalScientist 127830 wrote:

While it would be hard to underestimate how little I care about the outcome of this conversation, I do find the hypocrisy of some of the posters stunning. While claiming to be terrified of riding near ELFman because of its size (300 lbs loaded) and speed (20-25 mph), the proposed remedy is to banish it to the streets. A loaded ELF is much closer to a bicycle than a car. Why wouldn’t an ELF on a busy street not face a similar level of terror that the posters seem to claim?

The elf has a plastic shell, head and taillights, brake lights, turn signals, is huge, has an electric motor, and requires a relatively high level of consideration/dedication to even own. To suggest that it’s basically the same as riding a typical bike on the road seems disingenuous.

[Rod Smith]

I guess he isn’t going that fast if riders get stuck behind him. We saw him yesterday traveling the opposite direction.. He put his right wheel on the shoulder to let us by. A group of about fifteen rolling above the 15mph limit, two by two.

[sjclaeys]

No motorized vehicles are allowed on the W&OD. It doesn’t matter if they are emissions belching internal combustion motors or motors that run without emissions on fairy dust and unicorn sneezes.

[hozn]

@SolarBikeCar 127789 wrote:

I have a cycle analyst and a smart-phone app which I use for navigation. When stopped I review information on both screens. It is physically impossible to text and cycle, however, since applying power requires at least the right hand to be on the handlebars. The report of an ELF driver texting and driving is very likely fiction to support a meme.

Nope. You were holding a phone (or similar electronic device and it looked cumbersome to drive while holding it, but you did avoid hitting me, so obviously not impossible. Bravo, I say!

But, please, get off the trail. You aren’t allowed on it and are obviously too large to share it. The streets are a perfect place to drive your vehicle.

Edit: the streets are also a perfect place to ride a bicycle, but being small and agile affords bikes the option of safely using MUPs too. And a 34-mile daily commute is nothing you couldn’t work up to riding — good lord, HTFU.

[Raymo853]

@mstone 127811 wrote:

Yes, that’s ridiculously low under some conditions, and ridiculously high under others. That’s the real problem with an arbitrary limit: it’s not helpful in actually addressing safety concerns, because the right answer is to use an appropriate speed. Good sight lines on an empty trail? Who cares how fast you go. Children’s fun run day? You’d better not be trying to go between them at 15MPH. I’d love to see a dynamic limit based on visibility, utilization, weather conditions, nature of other users, etc. Sadly, that’s not feasible.

I agree with you, those limits are silly low at times and silly high at times, just like speed limits on roadways for automobiles. Yes trail users with concern for others would be best, and it what I do. I slow down to under 10 near: children, less than focused runners/walkers, anyone that appears less than fully able-ed, baby buggies ….

But I as I an my dislocated shoulder and split knuckles can attest, that is a fantasy. It is also why my wife and I cannot ride the paths together, she says I am too careful and frustratingly slow.

[Raymo853]

Also, we should not paint all DC based ELF drivers the same as Ed Myers, this guy Howard in Bethesda uses his to commute on typical roadways nearly every day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qivqy9Ms3qY&feature=youtu.be

Organic Transit sent out the link after replying to one of my tweets about Ed.

[americancyclo]

@SolarBikeCar 127820 wrote:

I can reduce the width 6″ by folding in the side mirrors, for example.

You can see behind you well enough that you don’t need to use the side mirrors while driving?

@SolarBikeCar 127820 wrote:

But if your objections are irrational and you want a rule applied only to the elf but not to any other user of the W&OD with similar characteristics (weight, height, speed, width) then the feedback isn’t going to get much respect.

I don’t think there are a lot of trail users that meet all of your characteristics
360 lbs
5 ft high
19 mph average speed
4 ft wide
9 ft long

@Raymo853 127858 wrote:

Also, we should not paint all DC based ELF riders the same as Ed Myers, this guy Howard in Bethesda uses his to commute on typical roadways nearly every day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qivqy9Ms3qY&feature=youtu.be

Organic Transit sent out the link after replying to one of my tweets about Ed.

Notice Howard also uses the verb ‘drive’ to describe what he does in his ELF. There was a CBS news report that highlighted the ELF, and it is never referred to as a bicycle. It’s always a bike/car hybrid, or a bike with car like qualities. Even the CEO of Organic Transit, Rob Cotter, refers to it as a bicycle/car hybrid.

[lordofthemark]

360 lbs
5 ft high
19 mph average speed
4 ft wide
9 ft long

One eyed one horned flying purple people eater

Sorry, I could not resist.

[Vicegrip]

@americancyclo 127860 wrote:

You can see behind you well enough that you don’t need to use the side mirrors while driving?

I don’t think there are a lot of trail users that meet all of your characteristics
360 lbs
5 ft high
19 mph average speed
4 ft wide
9 ft long

Notice Howard also uses the verb ‘drive’ to describe what he does in his ELF. There was a CBS news report that highlighted the ELF, and it is never referred to as a bicycle. It’s always a bike/car hybrid, or a bike with car like qualities. Even the CEO of Organic Transit, Rob Cotter, refers to it as a bicycle/car hybrid.

You just wrote the post I was going to, Thank you. The fact that all other means used on the W&OD are ridden except the Elf. Even the owner in question even uses the term drive on his website. Bikes, trikes, box bikes, tandems hand crank, recumbent and horse are all ridden.

I see the issues as not that the Elf on the W&OD is this or that. Any one of the above parameters can be reached by a athletic rider or a box bike or a tandem a horse or to some extent a recumbent trike. Nothing hits them all like the Elf. The Elf is simply “Too”. Too this and too that and too the other thing. The only way to argue for its reasonable use is to isolate each parameter and argue it alone. Compound that the owner has even bragged that he has modded it past the federal definition of a bike.
Simply put for me the elf is too wide. The W&OD is not wide enough for common use of Elfs. Picture two of them passing each other…..

Take the 3 foot rule in streets with cars. In order to give 3 feet to a bike on the W&OD ether the Elf has to go 1/2 off the road or the bike has to hug the fog line. This brings up another point.

I watched the Elf heading West for a good while on two occasions. (I was wearing my MAMIL disguise and blended right in) The Elf spends a lot of time putting a wheel off the pavement. Any deviation from dead straight in its lane and it is ether wheel off or well into the other lane. It is almost as wide as it’s lane and almost every time there was no oncoming traffic the Elf moved to the middle of the trail. I suspect that it would be a handful on a windy day. I get pushed all over the place and have less CoD than the Elf.
The W&OD has sharp drop off shoulders onto mixed dirt, grass or gravel almost for its entirety and this means the Elf has to make maneuvers that are very uncommon for the other forms presently used, wheels off while in motion. Few people put a wheel off the trail unless stopped. Lots of elfs putting wheels off would likely mean increased damage to the shoulders and increased risky moves going off and returning to the paved portion.
Stopping is another point. I looked at the shoulders and in many places there is simply not enough space for the the Elf to pull all the way off the pavement.

The above is my opinions based on my observations of the Elf, about the Elf and its impact on the trail. The following is for Ed, the driver.

The W&OD is a true area treasure that was hard fought for starting in the early 1970s and for the most part ongoing. It exists because some people saw the need, desire and opportunity for a safe path for non automobiles. A lot of work went into making the unique entity that the W&OD was back then and still is today. Every aspect, every dollar and every mile was fought for. It has exceeded all expectations in use and has spawned trails elsewhere by example. It is a conduit that is so well liked people will up and move to be near it. It is more than just another road and in many ways it is more than just another MUP. This area is slathered in roads but car free MUPs are few and far between. The W&OD connects the city to the mountains and connects the people in between to each other via people power. We sometimes chatter about blinking lights or calling passes or crazy Ivan’s but those of us that ride, run or walk it often also know what it means to have a car free path and what it means to not have it. Everywhere else that is black pavement is for cars first. The W&OD was intended to be and is for the rest of us. it is not my path, it is not yours, it is ours. Please use and enjoy it as we all do but don’t take more than your share.

The law is clear. “No motorized vehicles” on the W&OD. The managers of the trail have asked you to stop driving on it. Please feel free to ride on it with the rest of us. 39 miles round trip is a nice ride and “doable”. Come ride with us and learn the little things that make riding fun and enjoyable. You think recharging the Elf motor is cool. We riders get to Eat and Drink our fuel tanks full. Good food for the body and soul.

“And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

[mstone]

@Raymo853 127857 wrote:

I agree with you, those limits are silly low at times and silly high at times, just like speed limits on roadways for automobiles. Yes trail users with concern for others would be best, and it what I do. I slow down to under 10 near: children, less than focused runners/walkers, anyone that appears less than fully able-ed, baby buggies ….

But I as I an my dislocated shoulder and split knuckles can attest, that is a fantasy.

But it’s also a fantasy that a posted speed limit would actually help. If putting up an arbitrary speed sign would magically make the trail safe, I’d be all over that. But between the lack of routine enforcement, the fact that people will (just as on the roads) use the posted speed as a justified minimum (that is, “the sign says I can go 15, why should I go 10 just because it’s crowded”), and the potential for nuisance enforcement, I just don’t see a speed limit as helpful. The effort, IMO, would be much better spent on increased messaging about riding safely and considerately rather than on misguided efforts to legislate safety through one small aspect of safe behavior. Assuming the standard 5 or 10 MPH “cushion”, a 15MPH speed limit would effectively not be enforced until 20 or 25MPH. What fraction of unsafe behavior on the W&OD is caused by cyclists moving over 25MPH? I’d guess very little, honestly–there are bigger fish to fry.

Edit to add: I probably wasn’t clear enough that the last part is meant to say that the comparison to auto speed limits is misleading; a 25MPH speed limit on a road is a significant limit on a car that can go 80 or 100MPH. A 15MPH limit on a trail has very little practical effect, but still has the negative consequences.

[Sunyata]

@Vicegrip 127870 wrote:

The law is clear. “No motorized vehicles” on the W&OD. The managers of the trail have asked you to stop driving on it. Please feel free to ride on it with the rest of us. 39 miles round trip is a nice ride and “doable”. Come ride with us and learn the little things that make riding fun and enjoyable. You think recharging the Elf motor is cool. We riders get to Eat and Drink our fuel tanks full. Good food for the body and soul.

I have also tried to stay out of this debate, mostly because I do not ride on the W&OD between Vienna and Reston that often, and never during heavy commute times.

But the driver of the ELF (Ed, if I recall correctly) has felt it imperative to come onto the forum to defend(?) his position about riding the vehicle on the W&OD and everyone has made some excellent points. What Vicegrip has said above is really what I think Ed should take away from this. The W&OD is a community of sorts. It links people together, allows for recreation, transportation, and exercise in what should be a relatively safe environment away from motorized cars. If, within your community, multiple people bring up legitimate concerns about a prohibited item in the community, it is within their right to do so. It is also the responsibility of the offender (Ed, in this case) to put aside his stubbornness and selfishness and do what is best for the community at large.

I LOVE having the W&OD as part of my community. I use it often between Falls Church and Shirlington. I also use it fairly frequently west of Reston. I would absolutely hate it if that transportation and recreation corridor were to be taken from me because people are unable to follow the rules set forth by the governing body (NVRPA, in this instance).

Ed is effectively driving a hybrid car on a multi use path. NVRPA has requested that he not operate this vehicle on the trail. I think that the fact that Ed continues to utilize the path against the wishes of the folks that maintain the trail speaks volumes itself. Why has he not worked with NVRPA to come up with a solution if he truly feels that his vehicle is not a safety or maintenance concern for other trail users?

With regards to the electric vehicle aspect – From the Organic Transport website: “The ELF’s electric motor can transport you 15+ miles with no pedaling.” This is NOT an e-assist bicycle. This is a fully electric vehicle. This is not in a grey area. This is 100% not allowed on multi-use paths. Therefore, the argument that if the ELF is banned, then e-assist bikes would be banned is kind of a moot point (yes, I know what the current regulation is).

My advice to Ed is to take one of the following options (or a combination of any):

1) Drive the ELF on low speed roads (we can absolutely help you find a route that works for you if needed) and keep it off the W&OD as requested by the NVRPA.
2) Purchase an e-assist bicycle to ride on the W&OD (I am certain that a few forum members will happily give you recommendations for standard e-assist bicycles).
3) Follow Vicegrip’s advice above and work your way up to commuting solely by pedal power. It will make you healthier, happier, stronger, and able to eat LOTS more.
4) Find a multi-modal commute that uses a standard bicycle, buses, metro, and/or car-share. I am sure that we can help you with that, too.

There really is no need for further discussion or argument about this, in my opinion. The ELF is a fully electric vehicle (i.e. not allowed). NVRPA has requested that Ed cease and desist operating it on the W&OD. Operating the vehicle on the W&OD is against the rules/regulations and is unsafe for multiple reasons. And for the “but other people” argument: Two wrongs do not make a right. This discussion is about the ELF, not about Cat 6 racers, flexi-leads, children, runners, etc. If Ed would like, he can absolutely join in on those discussions in other threads.

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