ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[jabberwocky]

I’ve almost been hit a few times by some idiot in an ELF riding down the shoulder of route 7.

[Tim Kelley]

@ShawnoftheDread 148979 wrote:

Tim Kelley is the kid on the playground who always starts the “fight!” chant.

Who me?

I just love a good discussion!

[cvcalhoun]

The issue of whether an Elf is considered a bicycle under Virginia state law is separate from whether it is allowed on bike trails. See, for example, Falls Church City Code:

Sec. 26-105. – Definitions.

The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this article, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
Bicycle means a device upon which any person may ride, propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears, and having two or three wheels in a tandem or tricycle arrangement. The term “bicycle” shall also include pedal bicycles with helper motors rated less than one brake horsepower, which produce only ordinary pedaling speeds up to a maximum of 20 miles per hour; provided, that such bicycles so equipped shall not be operated upon any highway or public vehicular area of the city by any person under the age of 16 years; provided, further, that no such bicycles so equipped shall be operated upon any public sidewalk or bike trail in the city.

[cvcalhoun]

@lordofthemark 148975 wrote:

The limitations to define disability involve limits on major life activities. I am not sure someone capable of riding an Ebike, but not a pedaled bike, would qualify.

I’d say this is a case by case analysis. People with Parkinson’s, for example, often retain the ability to bike long beyond when they have the ability to walk. If such a person needed e-assist to make it up the steep hills, that could indeed fall under the definition of disabled access.

[SolarBikeCar]

@cvcalhoun 148982 wrote:

The issue of whether an Elf is considered a bicycle under Virginia state law is separate from whether it is allowed on bike trails. See, for example, Falls Church City Code:

Virginia is a Dillon state which means that local jurisdictions cannot have rules that conflict with state law or rules at all unless the state permits them.

State law does not allow local jurisdictions to modify the definition of a bicycle or change motor vehicle laws or define MUPs.

Then again, bringing up outdated Falls Church ordinances is an attempt at diversion since we are talking about Fairfax and Loudoun County unincorporated areas where Falls Church ordinances don’t apply.

[lordofthemark]

@SolarBikeCar 148985 wrote:

@cvcalhoun 148982 wrote:

The issue of whether an Elf is considered a bicycle under Virginia state law is separate from whether it is allowed on bike trails. See, for example, Falls Church City Code:

Virginia is a Dillon state which means that local jurisdictions cannot have rules that conflict with state law or rules at all unless the state permits them.

State law does not allow local jurisdictions to modify the definition of a bicycle or change motor vehicle laws or define MUPs.

Then again, bringing up outdated Falls Church ordinances is an attempt at diversion since we are talking about Fairfax and Loudoun County unincorporated areas where Falls Church ordinances don’t apply.

Except of course the state rule is unclear. You are presenting an interpretation the Virginia code of your own, that favors what you want to do.

Given that many of us here participate in local bike advocacy, or are involved in VBF, or otherwise have the ear of legislators, I would suggest you try to persuade people, rather than cite your interpretation of the Va Code at that them. The Va Code is capable of being changed.

[cvcalhoun]

@SolarBikeCar 148985 wrote:

Virginia is a Dillon state which means that local jurisdictions cannot have rules that conflict with state law or rules at all unless the state permits them.

State law does not allow local jurisdictions to modify the definition of a bicycle or change motor vehicle laws or define MUPs.

Then again, bringing up outdated Falls Church ordinances is an attempt at diversion since we are talking about Fairfax and Loudoun County unincorporated areas where Falls Church ordinances don’t apply.

But in this instance, Falls Church has not defined what is a bicycle differently than state law does. It has merely said that certain bicycles cannot use bicycle trails. Presumably, it has the power to ban all bicycles from trails, and thus can choose to ban only some of them.

As for “diversion,” I expressed no opinion on which specific jurisdictions do and do not ban e-bikes. (We’ve got a lot of trails in this area, and a lot of sometimes overlapping jurisdictional regulation of them.) I merely pointed out that the determination of whether something is a bicycle is not dispositive of whether it was allowed on a particular trail.

Oh, and the ordinance is current law, not “outdated.”

[lordofthemark]

Va Code, 46.2 -904. The operative words.

“The governing body of any county, city, or town may by ordinance prohibit the use of roller skates and skateboards and/or the riding of bicycles, electric personal assistive mobility devices, motorized skateboards or foot-scooters, motor-driven cycles, or electric power-assisted bicycles on designated sidewalks or crosswalks, including those of any church, school, recreational facility, or any business property open to the public where such activity is prohibited.”

It reads to me like the legislature has explicitly given localities the right to ban power assisted bicycles from places where other bicycles are allowed. While it does not explicitly refer to shared use paths, there is nothing denying the right of localities to ban particular items from share use paths.

[Crickey7]

Dillon Rule is not a preemption doctrine, it’s a grant of power doctrine. A locality cannot assert greater powers than are granted to them by the state. They cannot regulate what is a bicycle unless it falls within one of the police powers granted by the state, which it pretty clearly does.

[Vicegrip]

W&OD is a not simply a mup it is a regional park. It was conceived and intended as a recreational park.

[Harry Meatmotor]

Why not just lose some weight or get more fitness if you want to commute at 20+ mph?

[cvcalhoun]

@Harry Meatmotor 149023 wrote:

Why not just lose some weight or get more fitness if you want to commute at 20+ mph?

You’ve got to be kidding! I’m bicycling 25 miles a day, and have lost about 40 lbs., and I’m lucky if I can manage 10 mph. (And my speed has not really improved as my fitness has; I’ve just become able to go the same speed for longer.)

My bike is built for sturdiness, ability to carry things, and ability to handle ice and snow, not speed. I’m 63 years old. And I’ve always had a lot of endurance, but no speed. (Genetic testing says I have almost no fast twitch muscle fibers.)

Getting up to 20 mph is just not an attainable goal for some of us.

[Tim Kelley]

@cvcalhoun 149029 wrote:

You’ve got to be kidding! I’m bicycling 25 miles a day, and have lost about 40 lbs., and I’m lucky if I can manage 10 mph. (And my speed has not really improved as my fitness has; I’ve just become able to go the same speed for longer.)

My bike is built for sturdiness, ability to carry things, and ability to handle ice and snow, not speed. I’m 63 years old. And I’ve always had a lot of endurance, but no speed. (Genetic testing says I have almost no fast twitch muscle fibers.)

Getting up to 20 mph is just not an attainable goal for some of us.

Maybe look into some of Joel Friel’s stuff if you’re serious about it: https://www.velopress.com/books/fast-after-50/#toc

[cvcalhoun]

@Tim Kelley 149032 wrote:

Maybe look into some of Joel Friel’s stuff if you’re serious about it: https://www.velopress.com/books/fast-after-50/#toc

I don’t think a training program is going to help. Starting in elementary school, I was picked last for every sports team, ever. This was particularly embarrassing because the guy picked just ahead of me had never quite recovered from polio.

As mentioned above, there are genetic issues plus a slow bike. And as optimistic as this guy wants to be about fitness over 50, there are inherent limitations. After all, you don’t see people in pro sports, who get the best training possible, still doing it at my age.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@cvcalhoun 149029 wrote:

You’ve got to be kidding! I’m bicycling 25 miles a day, and have lost about 40 lbs., and I’m lucky if I can manage 10 mph. (And my speed has not really improved as my fitness has; I’ve just become able to go the same speed for longer.)

My bike is built for sturdiness, ability to carry things, and ability to handle ice and snow, not speed. I’m 63 years old. And I’ve always had a lot of endurance, but no speed. (Genetic testing says I have almost no fast twitch muscle fibers.)

Getting up to 20 mph is just not an attainable goal for some of us.

I was merely responding to the claim that the ELF driver had modified his questionable vehicle in order to go beyond 20 mph. I’m pretty sure ELFs have pedals. Ergo, if you want to go faster in an ELF that’s unmodified (and still questionably legal per NVRPA), there are other ways to do so. Like pedaling harder. Or losing 15lbs. It’s simple physics; watts/kg.

@cvcalhoun – you’re amazing! seriously, good work. keep pedaling. you’re an inspiration for all of us. no insult intended!

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