ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[LeprosyStudyGroup]

@SolarBikeCar 127814 wrote:

A horse weighs 1000#s, and is 5 ft or taller and can gallop at 30 mph. What is your opinion about the safety of horses on the W&OD?

Since you’ve demonstrated a willingness to set up straw man arguments and irrelevant excuses ad nauseum I’d like to call your attention back to the real crux of the problem: you’re not taking responsibility for your own actions which negatively impact the community around you:
@Raymo853 127793 wrote:

The bad behaviors of runners, walkers, and cyclists does not excuse your bad behavior nor your operating a car on a infrastructure not designed nor designated for cars.

A majority of people seem to believe the ELF is inappropriate to drive on the WO&D and other multi use paths, and your refusal to acknowledge this is not having any concrete positive impacts despite your flights of fancy otherwise. The really very simple solution is to drive the ELF on the streets, where it obviously was designed to be driven, even if that isn’t the most convenient thing for you.

Where is your threshold? Freaking people out isn’t good enough? Do you really have to hurt someone in an accident before you reconsider? 5 people? What will it take for you to modify your behavior for the better?

[SolarBikeCar]

@LeprosyStudyGroup 127818 wrote:

Since you’ve demonstrated a willingness to set up straw man arguments.

Please don’t project. I am simply asking questions to understand the nature of the objection. If it is something that I can change I will. I can reduce the width 6″ by folding in the side mirrors, for example. I can change riding style if it makes people uncomfortable. But if your objections are irrational and you want a rule applied only to the elf but not to any other user of the W&OD with similar characteristics (weight, height, speed, width) then the feedback isn’t going to get much respect.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127820 wrote:

Please don’t project. I am simply asking questions to understand the nature of the objection. If it is something that I can change I will. I can reduce the width 6″ by folding in the side mirrors, for example. I can change riding style if it makes people uncomfortable. But if your objections are irrational and you want a rule applied only to the elf but not to any other user of the W&OD with similar characteristics (weight, height, speed, width) then the feedback isn’t going to get much respect.

Please, you are simply oblivious and self-centered, even in this reply you are using the “I may be bad, but so are they.” deflection.

[SolarBikeCar]

@Emm 127816 wrote:

[Horses are] also easier to see around than the ELF car.

An elf has a transparent back and front window. From behind one can see through the vehicle to the path in front.

[Steve O]

@KLizotte 127806 wrote:

The combined weight of the Elf and you is a lot compared to a cyclist or pedestrian.

A tandem with two normal-weight males likely weighs as much or more than the ELF and driver. A tandem with rcannon and creadinger on it most certainly does.

(because they are tall and therefore weigh more proportionately than a shorter person; I’m not insulting them).

[Emm]

@SolarBikeCar 127822 wrote:

An elf has a transparent back and front window. From behind one can see through the vehicle to the path in front.

No. You cannot effectively do that. Only a very small part of the trail is visible through your front and rear windows, and since my head is not level with the windows while I am on a bike, the angle, your head blocking the windows, and the pillars that hold the windows in place meant I didn’t see enough to judge if I could pass. Just that tiny view was useless–I needed to see a much winder view in order to safely judge my ability to get around you. This is the same reason in a car you rarely look out of the windshield of the car in front of you to see if you can pass. There is just too much in the way and angles are all wrong.

I recommend you put a friend in your ELF, and ride a bike behind it for 10-20 miles. Try to pass and be passed in normal weekend or weekday commute conditions where there are multiple other trail users coming from both directions. You’ll quickly figure out why it can be scary for normal trail users to encounter your ELF, and why many of us support it remaining illegal to ride them on the trail.

[KLizotte]

Roll eyes. The number of horse riders on the W&OD is miniscule plus the rider has more of an incentive to stay safe (and keep the horse safe) than you do in your Elf which offers more protection. In four years of riding on the W&OD I’ve only encountered one horse. They were going *very* slow and I asked permission to pass because I know I have to yield to them. As others have noticed they are really only using the trail for very short distances, not to commute long distances as you are.

People are telling you on this forum that they have felt endangered by your vehicle and/or your actions. Just because a horse poses a danger to others does not mitigate the danger you may be imposing on others. That’s like saying all car drivers are not to be held responsible for passing cyclists too close because semi-trucks are on the road posing more danger to cyclists.

You still haven’t answered the real concern over the weight differential between your vehicle and other users on the trail.

[Anonymous]

@SolarBikeCar 127814 wrote:

A horse weighs 1000#s, and is 5 ft or taller and can gallop at 30 mph. What is your opinion about the safety of horses on the W&OD?

You are just trolling us, right?

May I point out that we have no way of knowing SolarBikeCar is *the actual guy* who drives the ELF on the trail, vs. some random internet dude who is having fun getting everyone all riled up.

[AFHokie]

@Raymo853 127817 wrote:

covered by established trail etiquette of all users giving way to horses…

…there should be rules about those horse riders that cannot control their animal properly…

Horses can’t read…how do they know the rules?

[Tim Kelley]

@Amalitza 127826 wrote:

May I point out that we have no way of knowing SolarBikeCar is *the actual guy* who drives the ELF on the trail, vs. some random internet dude who is having fun getting everyone all riled up.

Based on the confirmed email address used to register the Forum account, it is highly likely that it is the same person who runs the Solar Bike Car website.

[KLizotte]

@Steve O 127823 wrote:

A tandem with two normal-weight males likely weighs as much or more than the ELF and driver. A tandem with rcannon and creadinger on it most certainly does.

(because they are tall and therefore weigh more proportionately than a shorter person; I’m not insulting them).

True, it would really suck to get hit by a tandem but both riders have an incentive to stay safe since they don’t have any protection in an accident while someone sitting in an Elf has lots of protection. Look at how differently you ride if you don’t have your helmet on for instance. I believe the Elf driver completely underestimates how vulnerable other trail users are because he is in a cocoon; the same problem applies to car drivers.

[DismalScientist]

While it would be hard to underestimate how little I care about the outcome of this conversation, I do find the hypocrisy of some of the posters stunning. While claiming to be terrified of riding near ELFman because of its size (300 lbs loaded) and speed (20-25 mph), the proposed remedy is to banish it to the streets. A loaded ELF is much closer to a bicycle than a car. Why wouldn’t an ELF on a busy street not face a similar level of terror that the posters seem to claim?

The unsafe “behavior” that people claim seems to boils down to a few things:

1) Hard to see around
2) Not staying in lane, particularly on narrow parts
3) Not pulling over to allow passing
4) Leapfrogging others due to speed differential on uphills vs. downhills.

The first is not a behavior, but may suggest the trail is an inappropriate place to ride, but, then again, the obligation is on the passing party to assure safety.
The second is a problem that should be remedied and, if this is not possible, then the trail is an inappropriate route.
The third is not an obligation faced by any moving trail user.
The fourth take two to tango. If this is a problem, don’t pass ELFman if there is an upcoming hill.
(Personally, I don’t like leapfrogging other users, but it often happens with weak riders on geared bicycles.:rolleyes:)

[KLizotte]

@DismalScientist 127830 wrote:

While it would be hard to underestimate how little I care about the outcome of this conversation, I do find the hypocrisy of some of the posters stunning. While claiming to be terrified of riding near ELFman because of its size (300 lbs loaded) and speed (20-25 mph), the proposed remedy is to banish it to the streets. A loaded ELF is much closer to a bicycle than a car. Why wouldn’t an ELF on a busy street not face a similar level of terror that the posters seem to claim?

Huh? I don’t see the hypocrisy since cyclists ride in the streets with cars.

[DismalScientist]

@KLizotte 127831 wrote:

Huh? I don’t see the hypocrisy since cyclists ride in the streets with cars.

The poster stated it was “terrifying” riding near the ELF on the trail. I surmise the poster would find riding a bike on a busy road similarly terrifying. Personally I don’t find any of these situations terrifying.

[Emm]

@DismalScientist 127832 wrote:

The poster stated it was “terrifying” riding near the ELF on the trail. I surmise the poster would find riding a bike on a busy road similarly terrifying. Personally I don’t find any of these situations terrifying.

The road is different since it’s expected that there will be cars, and you know what you’re getting into (ie, you take the lane and keep it when needed). An ELF is much less predictable than a car since it’s in your lane, very hard to see around, and on a surface that is not built for vehicles that wide. I think the trail width vs elf size is one of the biggest issues, which is why on a previous post I said if they doubled the trail width, I’d re-evaluate my stance since in that case, the elf fits and would be much easier to safely pass.

Also, you should be more open and understanding of what scares some people. Just because you find riding on super busy roads to be a cakewalk doesn’t mean it’s not reasonable for some people to avoid it, and instead seek trails as a safer option. I bike on busy roads all the time, but I am always careful about picking roads that are wide enough for a bike and car to co-exist, and have bike lanes whenever possible.

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