ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[Raymo853]

I do not see just this one guy in his modified ELF car as the big problem. He is a physical threat based on the width, speed, and mass of his car. His self centered attitude and distracted driving techniques compound that threat. Those physical dimensions and personality faults can be matched by many bicycle riders, but not in such a combination. Rod could pull a wide 150 pound trailer, but not at 22.5 mph for two hours. Many riders can hold those speeds for long stretches on the WO&D, but not while using an iPad nor riding a bike 48″ wide. I could easily bulk up to 300 pounds, but would then be struggling to average 12.5 mph, ….

The bigger threat is the future. ELF cars, and their ilk, will get faster, heavier, larger, have expanded ranges, more charging opportunities, and become more common. What will it be like when there are multiple 400 pound ELFS v3.0 and 50 mph Specialized Turbos v3.0 on the WO&D every morning?

[dasgeh]

@Rod Smith 127631 wrote:

Well, if I didn’t have to negotiate the bollards on Penn Ave near the White House I might have purchased the double wide (64AW). http://www.bikesatwork.com/bike-trailers/specifications#

As it is, the width is a problem on the TR bridge sidewalk. Most people are cool about having to slow to get past me but some give me dirty looks. I do stop but not until I’m pretty close to the oncoming rider.

I’ve actually turned around on that sidewalk. That wasn’t easy or fun.

At 30 inches I’m nowhere near the width of an Elf though (48in). I’d love to watch him take on the TR bridge sidewalk at 20mph!

With my crazy handlebars, I’m 36″ wide (though my width is all high, so I think I can pull closer to the railings), and take the TR daily. I have similar experiences, though I get a little frustrated with people who freak out that I don’t stop 10 yards from them. I clearly indicate that I can see them and start slowing (usually just stop pedaling), but I don’t really stop until I’m right at them, so we all minimize delay.

I believe a 36″ max width would cover most of the bike trailers out there (maybe 38″), and add on a 20mph speed limit, and you’d cover Raymo’s doomsday scenario and make the trail safer for everyone. Or just stick with the current federal ebike standard, but then you wouldn’t cover the crazies on regular bikes.

[bentbike33]

Saw ELFman riding east on the W&OD west of Vienna yesterday as I was heading west. At the time I saw him, he appeared to be under the escort of two cyclists wearing chartreuse shells riding two-abreast in front of him. I wondered if perhaps they were taking civil action to keep ELFman at a more normal human-powered speed.

I did not give ELFman a “thumbs-up.” 😡

[Raymo853]

@bentbike33 127782 wrote:

Saw ELFman riding east on the W&OD west of Vienna yesterday as I was heading west. At the time I saw him, he appeared to be under the escort of two cyclists wearing chartreuse shells riding two-abreast in front of him. I wondered if perhaps they were taking civil action to keep ELFman at a more normal human-powered speed.:

If I ever see him, I plan such action.

[SolarBikeCar]

A discussion of how to separate different modes of transportation is a worthwhile one. There are several inaccuracies in this thread that I’d like to correct so the discussion is based on facts.

The ELF is designed to operate at speeds under 20mph on the level without pedal power. It can exceed that speed with rigorous pedaling downhill but cannot exceed 25 with any motor power because as the motor exceeds 25mph it switches from producing power to acting as a brake. I have tweaked the gearing slightly to increase my ability to add more pedal power which increases the top cruising speed without changing the vehicle’s legal definition of an electric-assist bicycle. The law limits the performance of an electric assist bicycle without any pedal input but is silent regarding pedal input because then it would be limiting regular bicycle speeds too.

I have a cycle analyst and a smart-phone app which I use for navigation. When stopped I review information on both screens. It is physically impossible to text and cycle, however, since applying power requires at least the right hand to be on the handlebars. The report of an ELF driver texting and driving is very likely fiction to support a meme.

Should there be width limits is a good topic to discuss. The elf fits one lane of the trail nicely for the section I use but I have learned I need to exercise caution around these activities:

1) Cyclists who pass traffic going in both directions by slicing down the yellow line. When I see cyclists approaching who might be tempted to pass I pull over so that one wheel is on the adjacent unpaved path to provide half of my lane for aggressive passing.
2) Cyclists who bunch up into a group that is two or three across and meandering slowly across both lanes.
3) Pedestrians who walk three abreast with dogs and take up both lanes.
4) Inline skaters who go really fast down the center line.
5) Race walkers who walk down the center of the trail with arms flailing back and forth.
6) Cyclists who draft inches from my rear tire for miles and won’t pass when given the opportunity. Tailgating to reduce wind resistance and then complaining that one can’t see around an ELF is bogus.

I’ve commuted 2500 miles over the past 6 months without incident or accident and want to continue to develop habits that preserve that safety record. If you have suggestions I’ll listen. I note that the trail is deserted when I bike on days that are cold or rainy so I am adding usage to the trail when others can’t because of weather. Even on perfect weather days the trail is far from capacity in the Vienna to Reston section.

[NicDiesel]

@SolarBikeCar 127789 wrote:

Should there be width limits is a good topic to discuss. The elf fits one lane of the trail nicely for the section I use but I have learned I need to exercise caution around these activities:

1) Cyclists who pass traffic going in both directions by slicing down the yellow line. When I see cyclists approaching who might be tempted to pass I pull over so that one wheel is on the adjacent unpaved path to provide half of my lane for aggressive passing.
2) Cyclists who bunch up into a group that is two or three across and meandering slowly across both lanes.
3) Pedestrians who walk three abreast with dogs and take up both lanes.
4) Inline skaters who go really fast down the center line.
5) Race walkers who walk down the center of the trail with arms flailing back and forth.
6) Cyclists who draft inches from my rear tire for miles and won’t pass when given the opportunity. Tailgating to reduce wind resistance and then complaining that one can’t see around an ELF is bogus.

So basically anytime you’re on the trail, right?

[KLizotte]

SolarBikeCar,

Why don’t you just ride a regular, pedal powered bike? Vienna-Reston isn’t that far after all. You would get plenty of exercise, pose less of a safety risk to all of the other trail users, and avoid this whole controversy.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127789 wrote:

Should there be width limits is a good topic to discuss. The elf fits one lane of the trail nicely for the section I use but I have learned I need to exercise caution around these activities:

1) Cyclists who pass traffic going in both directions by slicing down the yellow line. When I see cyclists approaching who might be tempted to pass I pull over so that one wheel is on the adjacent unpaved path to provide half of my lane for aggressive passing.
2) Cyclists who bunch up into a group that is two or three across and meandering slowly across both lanes.
3) Pedestrians who walk three abreast with dogs and take up both lanes.
4) Inline skaters who go really fast down the center line.
5) Race walkers who walk down the center of the trail with arms flailing back and forth.
6) Cyclists who draft inches from my rear tire for miles and won’t pass when given the opportunity. Tailgating to reduce wind resistance and then complaining that one can’t see around an ELF is bogus.

The bad behaviors of runners, walkers, and cyclists does not excuse your bad behavior nor your operating a car on a infrastructure not designed nor designated for cars.

[SolarBikeCar]

@KLizotte 127792 wrote:

SolarBikeCar,

Why don’t you just ride a regular, pedal powered bike? Vienna-Reston isn’t that far after all. You would get plenty of exercise, pose less of a safety risk to all of the other trail users, and avoid this whole controversy.

I simply cannot pedal 34 miles a day on a regular bicycle.

I ride over half my commute on the streets with speed limits of 35 or less. Cars don’t like bicyclists on the road either. With the Elf I can ride the road portion safely especially in bad weather. I’d prefer to ride the entire distance on roads since it would be shorter if only the neighborhoods had connecting streets. Instead there are cul de sacs or closed streets to prevent cut through.

I dispute that I am a safety risk to other users of the trail. I have debunked the outrageous speed claims (I’m slower than serious regular bicyclists.) My width is less than a bike lane and many others take up more than a bike lane and we safely coexists. No one is proposing to ban behavior of those other users who take up more than 5 ft of lane width so the argument is pretty weak that an elf is a safety problem on the W&OD.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

Cars don’t like bicyclists on the road either.

However bicycles are allowed on roads except those with special restrictions like limited access highways.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

No one is proposing to ban behavior of those other users who take up more than 5 ft of lane width so the argument is pretty weak that an elf is a safety problem on the W&OD.

Ban? I would not how that would work, no one has banned bad behavior of car drivers on roads. Regulate, monitor and fine bad cyclists on infrastructure like the WO&D, I 100% support that.

[Steve O]

@SolarBikeCar 127789 wrote:

A discussion of how to separate different modes of transportation is a worthwhile one.

Okay, friends, don’t attack me for coming to ELFman’s defense, at least a little.

I have not encountered the ELF personally, so I can’t speak to his actual behavior outside of what I have read here on this thread. And I can only use my imagination to get a sense for how much space it takes up.

The question of the legality of the ELF also seems murky to me (IANAL), but some readings of what is allowed on the W&OD would ban dasgeh and the BikeArlington bakfiets and others whom we really want to be able to use it, so I’m ambivalent about how exactly to enforce that.

The ELF is unquestionably a better environmental choice than a car, and–as a society–if a significant portion of automobiles were replaced by these types of things, that would be good. Regular bikes would be even better, but we all know that bikes are not going to be adopted by more than a minority of the population.

I think one, nicely behaving ELF on the trail may not be a huge problem. If we take ELFman at his word that he always “drives” with care and courtesy, then our only real beef is with the width of the thing. It does seem it is wider than pretty much anything else that uses the trail, including Rod’s trailer. But what if it were only 38″ wide? Would we be cool with that? And a question for ELFman–who has suggested that it is not too wide–what if the ELF were 4″ wider? Or 8″ wider? Where’s the cutoff?

A trickier question is this: what if 1% of the drivers who use I-66 and the Dulles Toll Road suddenly started driving these on the W&OD? That would literally be thousands per day. I think there would be wide agreement that a situation like that would not work. Not with the existing W&OD at least.

I think it is good that SolarBikeCar has joined this discussion. At the least, he has gotten some insight into the issues our community cares about. Perhaps, if I believe what some of you have written, he has adjusted his driving to address some of the concerns that have been raised.

So I guess I’m not ready to say that something like the ELF should be banned outright. I think the discussion should continue. Truthfully, imo, if ELFs and the like become more common, the better solution would be to make a 16′-20′ wide trail.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

I have debunked the outrageous speed claims (I’m slower than serious regular bicyclists.)

No you have not, your average and max speeds, listed on your webpage, exceeds what is safe on the WO&D in many places.

[SolarBikeCar]

If there were traffic jams on the W&OD because of ELF drivers than there would be incentives to widen the path or to upgrade the berm along Route 7 so there were safer bicycling options all around. Too many ELFs will be good for increasing the infrastructure for all bicyclists.

I have suggested that the ELF manufactures scale the vehicle down for a “sports” model. Making it half the weight and a foot narrower and reducing the height by 16″ would still accomplish the mission and make it seem more like a compact pickup than a hummer.

Innovation needs time and experience so a little patience from some of the detractors instead of vigilantism is appreciated.

[SolarBikeCar]

@Raymo853 127798 wrote:

No you have not, your average and max speeds listed on your webpage, exceeds what is safe on the WO&D in many places.

What is the consensus safe speed limit? I go speeds where I pass leisure riders and get passed by MAMIL. I do have an slight speed advantage going uphill compared to conventional cyclists but have a disadvantage on the downhills and in stop and go traffic.

[Author]

Posts