ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[Anonymous]

@hozn 128515 wrote:

Well, this has been entertaining. I am glad that SolarBikeCar is not alone. And hopefully he is equipped to deal with his supporters.

I picture some sort of Mad Maxx apocalypse of modified ELF cars on MUP trails and these crazies spewing 1984-style propaganda.

Before all this I really did think the ELF was a great idea. Now I am increasingly worried I would be mistaken for one of these other ELF drivers. Apparently the world needs more ELFs (driven responsibly … on roads) to make these weirdos the exceptions.

Does anyone else think this VIDE video is just propaganda? “China’s Illegal Organ-Harvesting Trade Is Still Booming”

Yes, Hozn, ban all people actually using the trails for necessary transportation, people carrying things back and forth for their daily lives. Then, your life will be better. Understand, though, that not everyone will have a chauffeur in their dotage, as you will, and the ELF could very well be their only viable means of transportation.

Are you a church goer, Hozn?

[Anonymous]

@Vicegrip 128516 wrote:

This thread took a hard right turn to crazy town. I try and make a point not to pig wrestle so it is the sidelines and popcorn for me.

Although, Adam Smith was not what anyone would call a “lefty”.

“By preferring the support of DOMESTIC to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an INVISIBLE HAND to promote an end which was no part of his intention.”

[Anonymous]

@dplasters 128517 wrote:

Whoa whoa whoa, we have learned so much!

• He believes very strongly in the One Country, Two system policy
• This helps in ignoring Taiwan as a democracy
• 25% is the ideal percentage of GDP for manufacturing, without this, 3rd world status for sure

Taiwan chooses to outsource manufacturing to Communist China, where it then often ends up in The U.S. Regardless of what Taiwan says, they already function as one country, 2 systems. Taiwan doesn’t have a problem with this, why should we? The money wasted on saber rattling would be much better spent on stopping the hemorrhaging of wealth creation and reversing our current account debt.

“25% is the ideal percentage of GDP for manufacturing, without this, 3rd world status for sure”

That is an estimate, but probably pretty close. Our country is infected by parasitic neoliberalism, so even an educated guess is hard to come by, and Americans are, naturally, kept ignorant about the cancer of debt 30 years straight of trade deficits bring any country. Our manufacturing sector is about 10 percent of GDP today. and Germany’s is more than double that. Manufacturing’s share of GDP under Eisenhower, when we had a positive trade balance, common sense protectionism, and the best growth in the middle class in our history, was 28%. What is being forced on this country today is very similar to the Morgenthau Plan to deindustrialize Germany after WW2, which was scrapped. We’re subsidizing the export of extremely fossil fuel and water intensive, yet low value added, low job creating goods, and IMPORTING, HIGH VALUE ADDED, high job creating goods. This is the trade pattern of a corrupt, third world country, or a very backward country. The inevitable result is ever decreasing aquifers, which take centuries to recharge, further consolidation of wealth to the corrupt elite, and eventually, third world status.

Anyway, have a nice day!

[Anonymous]

@DismalScientist 128463 wrote:

Bah… A pox on all of you houses.
Seeing that deranged rants are in order, I’ll have to add one of my own.

It’s hard to tell who is the more effete woosie, he who dons the lycra before mounting his non-metallic steed or he who thinks he is going to save the world by depleting it of its rare earths to make batteries.:rolleyes:

To all my compadres with the unnatural clothing: You know that khakis are the ideal cycling kit. You know that gears can be shifted with levers just as well $100 Rube Goldberg mechanisms, or even worse, electronics. Lastly, you know you won’t have to replace your bike every time you crash is you just get a steel frame.

As for electrified cargo bikes and ELF, you should realize that these will always be niche products and will not displace cars to any great extent. Distances are too great to replace cars for many peoples’ commutes. You say that an enclosed vehicle such as an ELF, people will drive/ride their commutes year round, even through inclement weather. If that were so, I would expect that more people would be commuting by bike when the weather is nice. Face it, 25 mph is too slow to get people out of their cars for their typical commute. Another well-known fact is that 90% of all car trips involve taking kids to soccer practice or games in some distant state.:rolleyes: While they may be fine for childless people or for those addled only with young children, electrified bicycles, of whatever dimension, tend to be inappropriate for carting around larger kids. Lastly, once someone has a car, the marginal costs of doing shopping using it is small. Certainly the money saved not doing shopping by car is not going to justify a cargo bike for the vast percentage of the population.

Batteries, be they in electric cars or electric bikes, are not substitutes for fossil fuels; they merely time shift the consumption of fuel to when the battery is charged. Furthermore, their chemical nature tends not to be environmentally friendly.

As I stated earlier, I’m agnostic regarding the ELF on the trail. Farther to the east, there a plenty of ELF-friendly streets, but out in Western Fairfax and beyond (Yes, you can hear the dulcet sounds of “Dueling Banjos” and where the women are men and the horses are scared), ELF-friendly through routes besides the trail are likely unavailable. In sum, I’ll take whatever position regarding the advisability of electrified bikes on the trail that I feel yanks the most appropriate chains at any particular time.

As for the Chinese problem (and if you know me, it is a problem:rolleyes:), if ELF-like vehicles ever make the mass market, where exactly do you think they will be made? The Chinese don’t control the bike industry; they are simply the low cost manufacturer, even of the ridiculously over-priced bikes. And a lot of the over-pricedness comes from branding, as well as bikes being “oversold” to those purchasers demanding dubious improvements.

OneLessCar, you quote Adam Smith defending a mercantilist position. Puh-lease…

“It’s hard to tell who is the more effete woosie, he who dons the lycra before mounting his non-metallic steed or he who thinks he is going to save the world by depleting it of its rare earths to make batteries.:rolleyes:”

Again. Compare an ELF to a car. It extends the radius the average person can travel, and shop, run errands, and even pick up a passenger, without 2000 pounds of metal surrounding them, year round. The bicycle will always be confined mainly to recreational status until it’s covered. As such, The ELF can have a much greater positive impact on the environment than the bicycle.

“If that were so, I would expect that more people would be commuting by bike when the weather is nice….Certainly the money saved not doing shopping by car is not going to justify a cargo bike for the vast percentage of the population.”

They are insuring that car anyway, and probably making payments, and letting a car sit is bad for it and a waste of space. They have to use it. The higher insurance and maintenance costs of a car are probably what is causing some people to replace cars with ELFs. For me. it was the insurance, maintenance, and the absolute need for exercise. I can’t stand running to nowhere, or pointlessly peddling like some kind of lab rat. I need a destination, and a reason for that destination. Need 36 pounds of dog food at 9PM at 20 degrees F? No problem. Get on The ELF and go. No insurance or license needed.

“And a lot of the over-pricedness comes from branding,”

No. Just about ALL of it comes from branding parasites. Go to Walmart and try to find PRC made manufactured goods WITHOUT some Wall Street parasite brand name on it. If there is no U.S. based AND, U.S. MADE version of a particular manufactured good, I always choose a generic brand alternative. Case in point. I needed a device to compute mileage, volts, etc. for The ELF. The Cycle Analyst would work well. However, now that Cycle Analyst has a little cachet, they’re asking $150 to $300 for it. No. They can keep the cachet. Not going to give $150 to a parasite. So, I found a backlit computer by SunDing of China that does most of what I need for $8.00, then I bought a simple volt meter for $6.00. So, with that 90% + savings, I can buy more American made things, and I skipped the middle man parasite.

“…if ELF-like vehicles ever make the mass market, where exactly do you think they will be made?”

I know where mine will be made. You really underestimate my provincialism. The last cell phone I had was a U.S. made Motorola. My shoes are American, my hats, UNDERWEAR, (UnionLabel.com, right in Minnesota) coats, boots, tennis shoes, my clothes are either American or Goodwill. Unlike Donald Trump, my Joseph Abboud suits and belts are American. Then again, I’m no billionaire, so I can afford it.

[Anonymous]

@PotomacCyclist 128525 wrote:

So if people independently complain about feeling endangered by an ELF rider on a bike trail (where authorities have asked him not to ride), then he brings in the race-baiting cavalry to go on the all-out attack. OK. Good way to convince your Cause is right. Engage in scorched earth Internet tactics. Sounds smart to me… :rolleyes:

Can you find my racist word or words, and quote them? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

@PotomacCyclist 128526 wrote:

This is exactly what people have been doing on this thread regarding the use of the ELF on the bike trail. I’m not necessarily saying they are correct since I have not encountered the vehicle myself. But what you are shouting about, your noble protection of society, is EXACTLY what people have been doing on this thread. And I’d say you aren’t exactly so noble, considering your personal insults and racial innuendo. C’mon, nonstop use of “Commie” this and “Commie” that, “Chinese-made Cannondales,” and other nonsense. Please.

I don’t have a vested interest in this thread either way, but I can recognize how over-the-top, personally aggressive, personally offensive and race-baiting you are. Your friend calls you in and this is your response? You’ve definitely turned off far more people off the ELF vehicle, just because of your personality. Anyone on the fence about it would certainly be against it now. Not because they “love Commies” or “love oil companies” or “love their Chinese-made Cannondales” so much or because of whatever. No, just because of YOU. You have definitely generated far more ill will toward your friend and the ELF community in general, considering how you choose to frame it in terms of race, us vs. them, and war-like, civilization-defining terms. Frankly, the oil companies, the car companies, the Chinese Communist party, and overseas manufacturers of any product have a secret friend in you.

Again, you have yet to cite any racism, but I’ll try to make my point without mentioning the COUNTRIES involved.

Ahem..

If Wall Street brands outsource to a non democratic, Communist country, with no guarantee of free speech, with at cost, or even free, state owned steel, oil, gas, aluminum, banking, electrical components, etc, while, parasitically sponging off democracies for technology and handing it over to said communist dictatorship, and then importing the product to a democracy, I believe this is treason, and suicidal foreign and economic policy. I believe democracy and free speech won’t survive if we keep trading with this state owned economy much longer. I believe capitalism is feeding on itself, and it’s taking democracy with it. Our largest in the world current account deficit and 30 year straight trade deficit would seem to support my belief. I believe it’s well past time we realize this and reverse course as quickly as possible, even when it comes to bicycles.

Was that OK?

[americancyclo]

@baiskeli 128512 wrote:

There’s a guy who parks his ELF at Judiciary Square many mornings. It’s covered with weird political rants of unclear meaning. Hmmm.

Same lime green one that parks on independence near long worth and Rayburn in the afternoons?
[ATTACH]10127[/ATTACH]

[dplasters]

@OneLessCar 128529 wrote:

Taiwan doesn’t have a problem with this, why should we?

Well, that is kind of an incorrect statement.

@OneLessCar 128529 wrote:

We’re subsidizing the export of extremely fossil fuel and water intensive, yet low value added, low job creating goods, and IMPORTING, HIGH VALUE ADDED, high job creating goods.

I get that you have a bone for manufacturing, but from an export per capita basis, we are killing Eisenhower now. I know that these aren’t tangible things, but they are real, and are not low value added at all. Making things isn’t all that great. Ask PC manufactures.

Are you arguing from some quasi Schumpetarian crumbling walls world?

[dkel]

@Vicegrip 128516 wrote:

This thread took a hard right turn to crazy town. I try and make a point not to pig wrestle so it is the sidelines and popcorn for me.

I just found the “Ignore List” function and applied it to OneLessCar. So, you won’t even find me on the sidelines for this thread; it’s just too repulsive to me.

[mstone]

@dkel 128537 wrote:

I just found the “Ignore List” function and applied it to OneLessCar.

Excellent suggestion. For those still looking: click on the name in any post, and you’ll find “add to ignore list” in the sidebar on the left.

Now, if only people would stop responding–there isn’t a convenient function to ignore posts quoting someone you’re ignoring…

[lordofthemark]

1. The economic development of China is one of the great humanitarian success stories of my lifetime. In 1970s most Chinese lived in grinding poverty. When I was in college the gap between the global rich and the mass of global poor seemed unbridgeable. The opening up of the Chinese economy under and after Deng, has lifted hundreds of millions of human beings to a better life (and that is true whatever you think of overconsumption in the richest countries, or by the richest Chinese). While it is fine to be concerned about the failure of that economic change to deliver political change, yet (and even so politically China is a much less nasty place now than it was in the 1970s) it is more than disappointing that the biggest gain in human welfare in generations is so overlooked

Note, the benefits to trade accrue, generally without regard to a country’s political system. The US since independence has traded with countries with a variety of political systems. Most would never have achieved democracy had they been walled off from world trade.

2. Net exporting nations are not parasites (in normal economic times) They send goods in exchange for pieces of paper. If they seem to be now, because of a global shortage of aggregate demand, the fault is with the austerity focused politicians and policy makers (and the press in many instances) for fighting appropriate fiscal policies to overcome the demand problems, not consumeres who buy things based on their personal needs.

3. As a general rule, current account deficits are driven by fiscal and monetary policy, and by levels of savings and investment, not by consumer choices of one product over another. China has a large amount of net savings, as its incomes have increased fast relative to consumption standards, and its consumer sector savings exceed its investment needs. The US is a net importer of funds, because of a range of factors, including the federal deficit, our demographic status as the baby boom draws down savings, and our approach to housing. If someone want to address the current account deficit, they need to address those factors

4. The FIRE sector in the US may be oversized but it is not inherently parasitical. The industrial revolution was largely enabled by banking institutions, and banks (and other finanical institutions) play a key role in any advanced market economy. And the US FIRE sector is a net export sector, as there is trade in financial services, which partly accounts for its size. To the extent it is oversized, there are ways to address that, like a proposed transactions tax. Shaming people for their consumption choices among goods is not going to address that.

5. But any debate about all of the above, is irrelevant. There are bikes made in the US, and in countries other than China (my Kona was made in Cambodia, not China. I think wanting to deny jobs to the children and grandchildren of the victims of one the worst genocides in world history, is troubling) If you want to make a case for an ELF vs a conventionl bike, or a regular Ebike, do so, but arguing for one type of vehicle over another, or for worse, for legal rights on trails, based on place of manufacture is absurd. Almost as absurd as the way we have hobbled our transit systems with buy america regulations.

6. It is almost certainly true, as Dismal has said, that there is a big part of the transportation market that ELFs cannot serve, and that can only go zero emissions with zero emissions cars (or SUVs, or pick ups) At the other end, there are huge numbers of peoples for whom a pedaled bike will always be the preferred choice. And others who will prefer a regular Ebike. And some who will ride an ELF (or its imported equivalent) on roads, not on trails. The ELF looks to me like a niche product. I mean its great it is being built – let a thousand flowers bloom! But it does not deserve special treatment on MUTs, certainly not MUTs already heavily used for non motorized transportation.

7. The discussion of trail rules was interesting. The “nationalistic” (but not really) bike shaming is not. In fact it is detrimental to all this forum is about, IMO. If I see more of it, I will report it to the mods.

[baiskeli]

@OneLessCar 128530 wrote:

I know where mine will be made. You really underestimate my provincialism. The last cell phone I had was a U.S. made Motorola.

FYI, Motorola has shut down its U.S. phone assembly plant. Don’t drop that phone.

[baiskeli]

@americancyclo 128534 wrote:

Same lime green one that parks on independence near long worth and Rayburn in the afternoons?

Yeah, looks like him.

[mikoglaces]

I nominate this thread for best and worst thread ever on this forum. I can’t help coming back to it, but I feel dirty every time I do.

[SolarBikeCar]

I thought this conversation was over. I was enjoying work and driving the trail in the cold and wind and left this thread so others could bicker about politics and play Poe troll games.

However there is one canard that keeps popping up that needs to be addressed before I go: The falsehood that park management has banned the ELF from the W&OD trail.

In July Park maintenance did stop me to say that motorized vehicles were not allowed. I appealed to the Park Manager to correct his false assumption that the ELF is a moped instead of an electric-assist bicycle. Since then many times I have pedaled slowly past the same Park Maintenance guys in defiance and each time they declined to again remind me of the “no motorized vehicle” rule. A month later a safety patrol cyclist did stop me to tell me that I was the subject of debate about my use of a MUP but the conclusion was that I was a legal user. His “friendly” suggestion was that I slow down in the more crowded portions of the trail but otherwise enjoy it and I could “open it up” on the empty sections between Vienna and Reston because the 15 mph speed limit of years ago was repealed (for better or worse).

[Author]

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