ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[kcb203]

@SolarBikeCar 128272 wrote:

Virginia Code (§ 46.2-100. Definitions.)

“Shared-use path” means a bikeway … [implicit in describing it as a bikeway is that it accommodates all bicycles including electric-assist ones]
“Shared-use paths may also be used [in addition to bicycles] by pedestrians, skaters, users of wheel chairs or wheel chair conveyances, joggers, and other nonmotorized users.”

“Nonmotorized users” does not apply to or describe bicycles users, skaters or wheel chairs. It only applies to users that were not already enumerated. Therefore motorized skateboards, wheelchairs and bicycles are permitted on shared-use paths.

Note that this law does not permit mopeds or Segways as they are motorized and are not otherwise enumerated as legal for a shared-use path.

Continuing on through 46.2-100 definitions, this section is of note: “Except as otherwise provided, for the purposes of this title, any device herein defined as a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, or moped shall be deemed not to be a motor vehicle.”

Those that want to creatively interpret Virginia’s definition of an electric-assist bicycle as requiring constant pedal action should know that that interpretation is prohibited by federal law as it nullifies the federal definition of an electric-assist bicycle.

“[Federal regulations] shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements.” [HR 727]

I know you like to think you’re a lawyer, but you’re not. The federal law merely gives the CPSC jurisdiction over low-speed electric bicycles that otherwise would be regulated by a different federal agency, probably NHTSA. The superseding clause prohibits states from imposing additional safety requirements beyond what the CPSC requires, but it does nothing to limit state or local authority to regulate where they may be used. Can Virginia require that a electric-assist bicycle be sold with lights rather than just reflectors because the CPSC only mandates reflectors? No. Could Virginia require the use of lights nevertheless to operate at night on the roads? Yes.

And as I said before, your ELF is motorized. It is not a motor vehicle under Virginia law, but it is motorized. Similar to the federal level, the definition that it shall not be “deemed to be a motor vehicle” removes authority from the Virginia DMV and certain sections of the vehicle code regulating motor vehicles. It does not mandate that a park authority must permit motorized bicycles on trails it has designated for nonmotorized use. Can NVRPA ban bicycles from Scott’s Run Nature Preserve? Yes it can. Can it ban motorized vehicles from the W&OD? Yes it can.

You can try all the twisted legal arguments you want, but you seem to lack the basic social skill to know that you’re not wanted on the bike trails. Drive your car somewhere else.

I’ve wasted enough time on this. Time to get back to my day job as a regulatory lawyer who deals with this type of crap all day.

[Subby]

And…

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10114[/ATTACH]

[Oldtowner]

@kcb203 128278 wrote:

I know you like to think you’re a lawyer, but you’re not. The federal law merely gives the CPSC jurisdiction over low-speed electric bicycles that otherwise would be regulated by a different federal agency, probably NHTSA. The superseding clause prohibits states from imposing additional safety requirements beyond what the CPSC requires, but it does nothing to limit state or local authority to regulate where they may be used. Can Virginia require that a electric-assist bicycle be sold with lights rather than just reflectors because the CPSC only mandates reflectors? No. Could Virginia require the use of lights nevertheless to operate at night on the roads? Yes.

And as I said before, your ELF is motorized. It is not a motor vehicle under Virginia law, but it is motorized. Similar to the federal level, the definition that it shall not be “deemed to be a motor vehicle” removes authority from the Virginia DMV and certain sections of the vehicle code regulating motor vehicles. It does not mandate that a park authority must permit motorized bicycles on trails it has designated for nonmotorized use. Can NVRPA ban bicycles from Scott’s Run Nature Preserve? Yes it can. Can it ban motorized vehicles from the W&OD? Yes it can.

You can try all the twisted legal arguments you want, but you seem to lack the basic social skill to know that you’re not wanted on the bike trails. Drive your car somewhere else.

I’ve wasted enough time on this. Time to get back to my day job as a regulatory lawyer who deals with this type of crap all day.

but, but, but…..the CPSC has spoken!

[kcb203]

@SolarBikeCar 127993 wrote:

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by Virginia law since in pedal and electric assist mode it cannot exceed 25mph. (My stock ELF could not exceed 20 mph.)

The ELF can be instantly converted into a regular bicycle by not using the electric assist and driven at speeds in excess of 30mph given sufficient gravity assist. (My stock ELF was limited to 28mph)

Anytime you’re exceeding 25 mph you’re breaking the law:

No person shall at any time or at any location drive an electric personal assistive mobility device, or an electric power-assisted bicycle faster than twenty-five miles per hour.

46.2-908.1

And don’t try to tell me that the motor doesn’t function above 25 mph. Even if that’s true, there’s no exception for operating this on pedal power alone above 25 mph. If it ever was an “electric power-assisted bicycle” in the first place, which I doubt, it remains so even on pedal or gravity power above 25 mph.

[OneEighth]

Why debate when you can take pictures and report to local law enforcement in real time instead.

[dkel]

When will this thread die? It’s like the zombie apocalypse of threads.

[peterw_diy]

@dkel 128311 wrote:

When will this thread die? It’s like the zombie apocalypse of threads.

Hopefully after ElectricCarDude stops riding on MUPs, which is hopefully before he’s involved in a crash.

[SolarBikeCar]

@kcb203 128301 wrote:

Anytime you’re exceeding 25 mph you’re breaking the law:QUOTE]

No. At speeds above 25 I convert into a moped under Virginia law. I am not permitted on a MUP at that speed, true, but I can ride on roads (which is the only place I’ve been able to achieve speeds above 25 anyway).

[Vicegrip]

@SolarBikeCar 128008 wrote:

No. I’m here to correct the falsehoods and to prevent attempts to encourage vigilante actions against me. I’m also hoping to foster some understanding and more civil behavior from that one cyclist who screams obscenities at me as we pass.

I have seen all kinds of people using all kinds of means of non automobile travel on the MUPs and roads. From 100 year old walkers working on the daily 1/4 mile shuffle to kitted up cyclists spinning a fast 50 to regular Jane and Joe people to the gentleman with one (1) arm and no (0) legs hand cranking out a hilly century in a fully human powered recumbent trike. Methods are sometimes suspect at times perhaps, but I can’t say I have ever felt the need to yell at someone based on their mode of conveyance. You are entering into one of the most inclusive areas of US/people I have experienced and yet you are disturbing otherwise calm people on and off the trail. Reasonable people could consider that a Clue.

I quietly watched you and your actions on the trail a few times with the intent of seeing if in fact it was not a true disruption as sometimes things look disruptive but are not. My observations made me think it is in fact disruptive and if more common presents a true increased danger to others. I don’t condone the yelling, cussing or any attempts in taking matters into own hands part but I have to admit can understand it. I think the person you need to foster the understanding in is not the guy yelling but his antagonist.

If you are trying to make others see your point you are doing a poor job of it. Your web presence is almost crusade like. You have seen a truth that is unseen to others and your goal seems to be to keep repeating the same “truth” until we all get it.

[dkel]

@SolarBikeCar 128320 wrote:

At speeds above 25 I convert into a moped under Virginia law. I am not permitted on a MUP at that speed, true, but I can ride on roads (which is the only place I’ve been able to achieve speeds above 25 anyway).

I’m no attorney, but even I can figure out the purpose of vehicle definitions in the statues is to regulate vehicles based on their characteristics and capabilities, not on how they are being operated in the moment. Your I-can-have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too interpretation of the law is what makes your position untenable and insultingly ridiculous.

[DismalScientist]

And I thought you wanted this thread to end.:rolleyes:

[dkel]

I do! Every zombie whose head gets blasted open is replaced by another! Just like the zombie apocalypse!

[Lt. Dan]

I’d like to ask- Do you have any supporters that think you’re in the right?

[dkel]

@Lt. Dan 128378 wrote:

I’d like to ask- Do you have any supporters that think you’re in the right?

Look out, everyone! More zombies!!

[lordofthemark]

ALL of my supporters think I am in the right.

[Author]

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