ELF pedal electric car on W&OD

[SolarBikeCar]

@dkel 127942 wrote:

E-bikes have a definite speed limit in Virginia: “§ 46.2-908.1. Electric personal assistive mobility devices, electrically powered toy vehicles, and electric power-assisted bicycles. No person shall at any time or at any location drive an electric personal assistive mobility device, or an electric power-assisted bicycle faster than twenty-five miles per hour.” I’m sure @SolarBikeCar has a well-reasoned explanation as to how that doesn’t apply to him.

The elf cannot go faster than 25mph even downhill with the wind with motor engaged. The motor acts as a brake (a generator of sorts) when the RPM exceeds the upper limit. The elf can be operated without motor assist and as a non-motorized bicycle on a downhill, however, it can exceed 25mph, but not by much. Around 30 mph is the upper limit on roads that are steep enough to allow gravity assist and furious pedaling. As I’ve explained before the W&OD does not have steep enough grades to allow free-pedaling to this speed. I believe the law applies to me and I comply with it.

[dkel]

@SolarBikeCar 127944 wrote:

…subject to the requirement that a Park Authority can not create rules that conflict with the Commonwealth (see § 15.2-5704)

§ 46.2-100. Definitions.
“Shared-use path” means a bikeway that is physically separated from motorized vehicular traffic by an open space or barrier and is located either within the highway right-of-way or within a separate right-of-way. Shared-use paths may also be used by pedestrians, skaters, users of wheel chairs or wheel chair conveyances, joggers, and other nonmotorized users.

VA law. Not a park rule.

[DismalScientist]

Then I suppose Dominion Power can’t drive on the trail to maintain their power line.:rolleyes:

[dkel]

@SolarBikeCar 127945 wrote:

I believe the law applies to me and I comply with it.

I see little evidence of this in general. Your “interpretation” of local law is creative at best, and purposefully misses the point at worst. Like some others on this forum—and on the section of the W&OD that you use—I haven’t been bothered by your use of the trail—despite the many ways that it is inappropriate, legally or otherwise—because I haven’t personally had any trouble with you out there. While I appreciate the civility with which you have engaged this debate here, I feel it masks an attitude of self-righteousness and willful disregard for others. The laws that you routinely flaunt are there to protect vulnerable trail users, and your weak attempt to justify your actions against those laws is distasteful to the point of becoming sickening to me. This is the root of my personal issue with you. If I see you on the trail, I will honestly try not to be rude to you, but I will tell you to get off the trail, not because of any legal argument—which you would certainly ignore—but because I don’t trust you to be concerned for the community of trail users, since all you seem to do is think of yourself and your superiority.

[SolarBikeCar]

@dkel 127947 wrote:

§ 46.2-100. Definitions.
“Shared-use path” means a bikeway that is physically separated from motorized vehicular traffic by an open space or barrier and is located either within the highway right-of-way or within a separate right-of-way. Shared-use paths may also be used by pedestrians, skaters, users of wheel chairs or wheel chair conveyances, joggers, and other nonmotorized users.

VA law. Not a park rule.

I see your definition and raise you one regulation. Note that taking the below section in context “nonmotorized” means not a motor vehicles and Virginia code explicitly declares that electric assist bicycles are not to be considered motor vehicles for regulatory purposes.

§ 46.2-904. Use of roller skates and skateboards on sidewalks and shared-use paths; operation of bicycles, motorized skateboards or foot-scooters, motor-driven cycles, electric power-assisted bicycles, and electric personal assistive mobility devices on sidewalks and crosswalks and shared-use paths; local ordinances.
…

A person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, motor-driven cycle, or an electric power-assisted bicycle on a sidewalk, shared-use path, or across a roadway on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties of a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

[hozn]

Yeah, I can see how you would expect to be treated like a pedestrian in your pedal-assist car. This is hilarious.

I think everyone has raised great points. Vicegrip’s post really does hit the nail on the head. Car-sized vehicles don’t fit into the community that is the W&OD.

I think the Elf is awesome. I would never have even considered driving it on a MUP. What a sense of entitlement you possess. There are plenty of alternative routes to get where you are going. Use them.

[KLizotte]

Are any of the runners/walkers on this forum aware of complaints being raised by the ped community? Lots of peds complain about cyclists passing them on the trail, I can only imagine how they feel about the elf.

I’m not on any ped listservs so am unaware of what others are saying on this matter.

[mstone]

@DismalScientist 127948 wrote:

Then I suppose Dominion Power can’t drive on the trail to maintain their power line.:rolleyes:

They have an easement. They can also drive through my yard, but that doesn’t mean anyone can. :rolleyes:

[Sunyata]

@SolarBikeCar 127950 wrote:

I see your definition and raise you one regulation. Note that taking the below section in context “nonmotorized” means not a motor vehicles and Virginia code explicitly declares that electric assist bicycles are not to be considered motor vehicles for regulatory purposes.

(emphasis added by me)

My point was apparently completely ignored by Ed. The ELF is NOT an electric assist bicycle. Electric assist means that the motor is only engaged while you are actively pedaling the bicycle. The ELF can run on battery power alone, without any pedal input from the driver (for 15+ miles, according to the website!). Therefore, the ELF is to be considered a motorized bicycle.

Motorized vehicles (including motorized bicycles) are not allowed on multi use paths by both Virginia and local code.

Seriously, end of discussion. It is not allowed. NVRPA has requested that Ed stop operating the vehicle on the trails. I really do not understand why this is so hard for him to understand. :confused:

[Raymo853]

@Sunyata 127987 wrote:

(emphasis added by me)

My point was apparently completely ignored by Ed. The ELF is NOT an electric assist bicycle. Electric assist means that the motor is only engaged while you are actively pedaling the bicycle. The ELF can run on battery power alone, without any pedal input from the driver (for 15+ miles, according to the website!). Therefore, the ELF is to be considered a motorized bicycle.

Motorized vehicles (including motorized bicycles) are not allowed on multi use paths by both Virginia and local code.

Seriously, end of discussion. It is not allowed. NVRPA has requested that Ed stop operating the vehicle on the trails. I really do not understand why this is so hard for him to understand. :confused:

Plus Ed has modified his ELF to exceed the limits designed by Organic Transit, making his argument that it is just a bicycle with electric assist, lessened even further.

But let us be honest, Ed is not going to stop using the WOD. The authorities may issue him tickets, orders, etc… but he will fight and ignore them. Various members of the public will debate about him, purposely get in his way, etc… with little real effect beyond their own blood pressure. Organic Transit may even have a little talk with him, as they promised, but he’ll probably ignore and argue with them. In the unlikely event he ever does injure someone, unless he is carrying loads of personal liability insurance, the resulting lawsuit will cost him a lot of money.

[SolarBikeCar]

In summary…

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by federal definition because as a vehicle it can self-propel no faster than 20 mph with a 170# rider on level terrain.

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by Virginia law since in pedal and electric assist mode it cannot exceed 25mph. (My stock ELF could not exceed 20 mph.)

The ELF can be instantly converted into a regular bicycle by not using the electric assist and driven at speeds in excess of 30mph given sufficient gravity assist. (My stock ELF was limited to 28mph)

The ELF is wide but it fits on a 10 ft trail and can pass another similarly sized vehicle while maintaining 3ft of clearance.

The paved portion of W&OD is 10 ft wide with 4ft of adjacent walking paths between Reston and Vienna, the portion of the W&OD in which the ELF has been ridden.

Virginia Statutes give electric-assist bicycles riders a “by-right” permission to use multi-use paths that cannot be taken away by local jurisdictions.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127993 wrote:

In summary…

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by federal definition because as a vehicle it can self-propel no faster than 20 mph with a 170# rider on level terrain.

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by Virginia law since in pedal and electric assist mode it cannot exceed 25mph. (My stock ELF could not exceed 20 mph.)

The ELF can be instantly converted into a regular bicycle by not using the electric assist and driven at speeds in excess of 30mph given sufficient gravity assist. (My stock ELF was limited to 28mph)

The ELF is wide but it fits on a 10 ft trail and can pass another similarly sized vehicle while maintaining 3ft of clearance.

The paved portion of W&OD is 10 ft wide with 4ft of adjacent walking paths between Reston and Vienna, the portion of the W&OD in which the ELF has been ridden.

Virginia Statutes give electric-assist bicycles riders a “by-right” permission to use multi-use paths that cannot be taken away by local jurisdictions.

And I am sure you’ll say these same things while in a civil court watching your house deed being signed over to someone else. As people have shown, effective arguments can be made that it is not an electric assisted bicycle nor allowed on the WOD as according to other VA statutes. Yes the law is insanely complex, contradictory, and illogical. People often get in trouble assuming it is.

My favorite local example, it is illegal to use rain barrels in Arlington Country to collect rain water from your house’s roof, but Arlington Country had a program giving them out to homeowners.

[SolarBikeCar]

@Raymo853 127996 wrote:

.. As people have shown, effective arguments can be made that it is not an electric assisted bicycle nor allowed on the WOD as according to other VA statutes.

I give citations to support my legal arguments and technical specs from testing devices to support my facts. Others here have just made up stuff.

[lordofthemark]

@SolarBikeCar 127993 wrote:

The ELF can be instantly converted into a regular bicycle by not using the electric assist and driven at speeds in excess of 30mph given sufficient gravity assist. (My stock ELF was limited to 28mph)

At what speed can it be ridden on flat terrain?

I mean my Honda Civic can probably achieve 30MPH on a sufficiently steep down slope without any power from the engine.

[baiskeli]

@Raymo853 127996 wrote:

My favorite local example, it is illegal to use rain barrels in Arlington Country to collect rain water from your house’s roof

Wait, what? I’d really like to know where you go that info, thanks.

[Author]

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