e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[LhasaCM]

@Steve O 192124 wrote:

I don’t know. I’ve had a pump mounted on my bike for at least 15 years (not the same one) and no one has ever taken it.

Counterexample: one time I accidentally left my pump mounted on my bike for 4 minutes while I dropped something off at the post office. Hopefully whoever took it got good use out of it.

@ChristoB50 192126 wrote:

So I’m not the only one who did that? Phew!
(Though sadly, my fall didn’t involve actual clips — it was those over-the-toe cage/strap things! Oh, the humiliation! Thinking back, that incident may in fact have been the very last bike ride I ever made, for the next 25 years…)

No, you’re not the only one (though it’s never happened to me*).

* I tried SPD cleats once but didn’t like them, and only ride flat pedals

[lordofthemark]

@LhasaCM 192123 wrote:

That doesn’t sound terribly high to me and strikes me as an attempt to scare people unnecessarily. I wonder: what percentage of non e-bike riders have had a “single-vehicle accident” in their lifetime?

For a completely unscientific but relatable counterpoint: we had 20 individuals submit entries during FS2019 for the London Bridge pointless prize. That’s 10% of that particular population in just one single almost 3 month period. Also: the Swiss study included “loss of balance (mostly related to low speed)” as a type of accident, so that would also cover anyone who hasn’t been able to unclip when stopping and fell over at least once in their lives.

My wife had one of those on the same ride where she broke her hand going under the Memorial bridge. She was not clipped in. BAN CABI!

[dasgeh]

@Oldtowner 192120 wrote:

Separately, I was talking to a Swiss visitor who told me there has been a big problem with e-bike accidents and injuries in Switzerland. So I went to look that up and found a study saying that 17% of Swiss ebike riders have experienced a single-vehicle accident, which seems like a lot. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751830174X

Ebikes are here to stay, but the trails are going a little more dangerous with them.

17% of riders experiencing a single rider crash also doesn’t seem high to me. I think back to the BAC meeting when Steve O asked who in the room who rides the Trollheim had fallen on the Trollheim. I was the only person not in that category.

My working theory is that ebikes will get more of the “interested but concerned” part of the population out riding, and those folks are more risk adverse than the folks who ride today. So they will ride more safely than us crazies out there now, and safety will increase.

A study on the W&OD showed that ebikes on the trail had lower average speeds than pedal bikes.

[Steve O]

@dasgeh 192138 wrote:

17% of riders experiencing a single rider crash also doesn’t seem high to me. I think back to the BAC meeting when Steve O asked who in the room who rides the Trollheim had fallen on the Trollheim. I was the only person in that category.

I think you mean to say you were the only one who had NOT fallen on the Trollheim. Lucky you; it claims everyone at some point.

[dasgeh]

@Steve O 192149 wrote:

I think you mean to say you were the only one who had NOT fallen on the Trollheim. Lucky you; it claims everyone at some point.

Right about the first point. But I am resisting the Trollheim!

[gibby]

@dasgeh 192138 wrote:

A study on the W&OD showed that ebikes on the trail had lower average speeds than pedal bikes.

Can you share a link to that study? I’d love to see the data, since that is definitely not what I experience during rush hour…thanks

[ChristoB50]

Perhaps I got “measured” on my pedal-assist-only ebike, unbeknownst to me, in their study!
I’m passed by pedal-cyclists more often than by ebikers, and I’m passed in general about as often as I pass other cyclists, of either variety. Those rough stats are particularly based on the morning/evening commute rides (vs. say, a Saturday leisure ride.)

Speaking for my own ebike use, I tend to average 12.5 – 13.5 mph total, on just about every trip I make. Of course being an average, it means I’ll have brief stretches in the upper teens (or even low 20’s like everyone, on a healthy gravity-assisted descent.)
But then my PAS ebike purchase was never for gaining speed; it was for extending my achievable distances and ride duration.

[DrP]

@gibby 192166 wrote:

Can you share a link to that study? I’d love to see the data, since that is definitely not what I experience during rush hour…thanks

I agree. I believe that I have only once passed a e-bike in all the years I have been cycling and that person was traveling with someone slow on a regular bike. I am passed daily by e-bikes on my commutes. I am in the 12-15 mph range usually (downhill much faster and on some straightaways, and slower on most uphills).

Oh, and I have seen the occasional “pack” of flat bar (not sure if hybrid or mountain bike or BMX) e-cyclists who zip by folks on and off the trail – it was dangerous in Bluemont by the disc park. These are not the norm, but they do exist.

No idea who did the study and the details and I have many counter examples. Not sure whom they were comparing against either. Can non-e-bikes go faster? Likely. Can e-bikes pass non-e-bikes? Most definitely.

[ReneeYvonne]

Here is a link to the study. It talks about speed on page 4 https://www.novaparks.com/sites/default/files/Toole%20Design%20-%20Whitepaper%20E-Bikes.pdf.

[sjclaeys]

@dasgeh 192138 wrote:

A study on the W&OD showed that ebikes on the trail had lower average speeds than pedal bikes.

So looking at the study, this statement can appear to be a bit misleading. Although the study was done for NVRPA to inform policy for e-bikes on the W&OD, the findings of the study, including regarding speed, are not based on behavior on the W&OD. It just cites a study that found that e-bikes were observed to go faster on roads than analog bikes and slower on a MUP than analog bikes. I’d also note that the cited study also found nearly identical safety behavior between e-bikes and analog bikes. This would dispel the notion that e-bike riders can somehow be expected to be more careful than the rest of us “crazies”. Also, in case anyone wishes to respond with their own non-scientific observations, I’ll put it out there that last evening at the intersection of Lynn and Lee Highway (aka the IOD), I observed a mom on a cargo e-bike with a young child in a back seat cross Lynn against the red light.

[ChristoB50]

@sjclaeys 192181 wrote:

Also, in case anyone wishes to respond with their own non-scientific observations, I’ll put it out there that last evening at the intersection of Lynn and Lee Highway (aka the IOD), I observed a mom on a cargo e-bike with a young child in a back seat cross Lynn against the red light.

Is that meant to suggest her poor decision making (my view) was because she was on an ebike?
That particular mom certainly doesn’t hold a monopoly on poor riding decisions, by virtue of using an ebike rather than a pedal bike. I’ve witnessed (I’m sure we all have) plenty of what I’d consider head-scratchingly-stupid decisions made by plenty of other cyclists (either bike variety) with (and without) a child in tow…!

[lordofthemark]

The data for Europe though showed fewer infractions for ebikes.

So data mixed, overall no evidence that ebikes are better or worse in behavior so far (this could change as they get more uptake in the market) and no significant difference in on trail speed.

But more demand for trails, more usage of on road bike infra (often opposed on basis of light usage) more visibility for bikes on roads (“critical mass”) etc, etc. Sounds like a good case for encouraging more ebikes. Even on trails.

[lordofthemark]

@ChristoB50 192182 wrote:

Is that meant to suggest her poor decision making (my view) was because she was on an ebike?
That particular mom certainly doesn’t hold a monopoly on poor riding decisions, by virtue of using an ebike rather than a pedal bike. I’ve witnessed (I’m sure we all have) plenty of what I’d consider head-scratchingly-stupid decisions made by plenty of other cyclists (either bike variety) with (and without) a child in tow…!

SteveC can certainly speak for himself, but I think he was trying to counter the argument that “ebikers are reluctant adopters of biking, more likely to be parents with kids along, etc, hence will be MORE law abiding and polite than existing (acoustic) riders”

Leaving aside the issue of the size of the n, someone who has to ride across the IOD as it currently exists is arguably not the most cautious person to begin with, regardless of what kind of bike they ride. Better infra is still a more likely way to bring out the cautious would be riders than ebikes are.

[sjclaeys]

@lordofthemark 192184 wrote:

SteveC can certainly speak for himself, but I think he was trying to counter the argument that “ebikers are reluctant adopters of biking, more likely to be parents with kids along, etc, hence will be MORE law abiding and polite than existing (acoustic) riders”

Leaving aside the issue of the size of the n, someone who has to ride across the IOD as it currently exists is arguably not the most cautious person to begin with, regardless of what kind of bike they ride. Better infra is still a more likely way to bring out the cautious would be riders than ebikes are.

Yes, my point is that there is little/no basis to expect e-bike riders to behave any differently from analog/acoustic bike riders. In fact, it may be more likely that both sets of riders overall generally behave more similarly to how they drive a vehicle. I do not dispute the size of the n in my observation, but low n size has not stopped many on the forum from using personal observations as the basis for making public safety policy.

[ChristoB50]

@sjclaeys 192185 wrote:

In fact, it may be more likely that both sets of riders overall generally behave more similarly to how they drive a vehicle.

An interesting point as I increasingly see more cyclists actively engaged with their phones’ screens (ie, not just talking phone-held-to-ear) while riding — behavior which already has a long history with vehicle drivers; now potentially morphing into a new “normal” for some cyclists, too…

[Author]

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