e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[dasgeh]

@phog 174780 wrote:

One nice thing was that if I needed to slow to a crawl behind a pedestrian because there was an oncoming bike, after that bike passed and then went around the walker I could hit the throttle and be back up to cruising speed within seconds with no effort, and then could resume pedaling normally. In general I found that the usual considerate behaviour of slowing down when overtaking a dog walker was more joyful when I could easily get back my previous speed after passing. So being on en e-bike does not necessarily compel one to be a daredevil, quite the opposite if you have the mindset for it.

THIS!!!

And nice set up. Sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought and love in it. Glad it’s gotten you back to biking.

[Dewey]

@dasgeh 174956 wrote:

As a frequent runner on the Custis (scandal, I know), I much prefer being passed by cargo bikes (e- or not) than bikes with trailers (e- or not), because the riders with trailers don’t always seem to know where their trailers are in relation to them/ the people they’ve passed and/or aren’t always in control of where the trailer is going.

Lots of people out on the trails in this good weather, I know you agree a child trailer is an inexpensive way to get into family biking, so is a child seat of course. I don’t attempt to thread the needle between trail users when towing a child trailer as it’s too wide, on street that width pushes me to ride further from the gutter than I usually do so as not to strike a kerb stone, although with my clumsiness I think that might happen if I rode a long or mid tail cargo bike which is why I admire the thoughtfulness of models where you can remove the foot rails when not carrying children. I’ve found an articulated trailer useful to get around tight corners and carry groceries but awkward to back up.

[hozn]

I suspect differences in people knowing how to handle the trailer can probably be correlated to cycling experience. So far my impression is that people buying box and cargo bikes have been doing this cycling for a little while.

I’ve only ridden an electric box bike a little bit; it was absolutely terrifying to me. But I am sure you get used to the e-assist.

I am amazed at the number of additional e-bikes I am seeing in this warm weather.

[Judd]

@hozn 174996 wrote:

I’ve only ridden an electric box bike a little bit; it was absolutely terrifying to me. But I am sure you get used to the e-assist.

The first couple of times that I rode a ped-elec it was very uncomfortable on starts and while turning because the assist was kicking in at times that I didn’t necessarily want it to. I got used to it by the third ride.

[Dewey]

@Judd 175002 wrote:

The first couple of times that I rode a ped-elec it was very uncomfortable on starts and while turning because the assist was kicking in at times that I didn’t necessarily want it to. I got used to it by the third ride.

Yes, magnet pedal cadence sensors act like a simple on/off motor switch and aren’t particularly responsive. For kit conversions I admire the pedal torque sensors Grin Tech sells though you have to drill a hole through your bottom bracket shell for the cable that connects to the controller. OEM systems like Bosch use multiple sensors and are very responsive starting and stopping in line with your pedalling. For the rest it’s an argument for having a throttle and why Class 2 ebikes are a good thing.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 174769 wrote:

You (and others) seem to think that ebikes somehow mean people bike as fast as they can go all the time, regardless of context/safety.

I will not respond to the rest, as I would rather not discuss ebike operation until I have actually ridden an ebike in traffic and up a hill (I learned a lot riding ebikes in Hains Point, but not enough).

However I wanted to clarify that the above mischarecterizes my belief. If I believed that I would not support class 3 ebikes ANYWHERE they mixed with pedestrians, yet I have clearly stated that I would support a call for a legal sidepath crossing for class 3 ebikes over the Potomac. I think maximum attainable speed is ONE factor impacting the speeds people take – some people are more tempted by the maximum, some are more inclined to properly limit their speeds based on conditions. We can disagree on the empirical question of those parameters (perhaps no one is actually influenced by their max speeds – perhaps the low safe speed on the Key bridge makes the difference in max speed between even an upright human powered bike and a class 3 ebike irrelevant – perhaps the ease of accelerating makes ALL ebike riders more responsible) but my position is not what was stated above.

[Vicegrip]

I wonder how many e-bikes will be on the road once the original battery takes a dump? E-bikes don’t fix the weather, roads, cars where to park and not get it stolen or stripped and other issues with year round cycling. At some point they will need a new battery. Unless you are real handy it will retail for a good % of the original cost of the bike. I bet we start seeing craigs list “Great bike, all there, just needs a battery” ads.

[sjclaeys]

@Vicegrip 175045 wrote:

I wonder how many e-bikes will be on the road once the original battery takes a dump? E-bikes don’t fix the weather, roads, cars where to park and not get it stolen or stripped and other issues with year round cycling. At some point they will need a new battery. Unless you are real handy it will retail for a good % of the original cost of the bike. I bet we start seeing craigs list “Great bike, all there, just needs a battery” ads.

This reminds me of a conversation that I had yesterday with someone who works with the lithium ion battery industry. As of now, there is no way to recycle lithium ion batteries, so all of those batteries full of nasty chemicals are going into the waste stream. So how are e-bikes environmentally friendly again?

[Harry Meatmotor]

@sjclaeys 175050 wrote:

This reminds me of a conversation that I had yesterday with someone who works with the lithium ion battery industry. As of now, there is no way to recycle lithium ion batteries, so all of those batteries full of nasty chemicals are going into the waste stream. So how are e-bikes environmentally friendly again?

They’re more environmentally friendly because they got all the soccer-moms out of their SUVs and successfully increased ridership numbers for PAC meetings!!

(for about 15 minutes)

[Vicegrip]

@sjclaeys 175050 wrote:

This reminds me of a conversation that I had yesterday with someone who works with the lithium ion battery industry. As of now, there is no way to recycle lithium ion batteries, so all of those batteries full of nasty chemicals are going into the waste stream. So how are e-bikes environmentally friendly again?

The person might be confusing can with does. Lithium cells are 100% recycable and it is against the law in most places to to simply drop most forms of power cells in the trash. Even if not recycled they should enter the E waste stream along with all the other 2 years and done digital stuff. The issue is that unlike lead based cells there is little $ value in the materals in each Lithium cell as the raw materal cost is about 3% of the retail cost. The push should be to recycle them for eviro reasons rather than the present $ based format. They are also less toxic than other forms. Lithium cells also are suplanting the older non rechargable cells. Rather than the 50 or 100 one use cells over a device lifespan it is only the Lithium cells that came with it that enter the waste stream at the device end of life. This delta is ever growing as they improve the lifespans. Gel cell lead acid e-bikes would go through many more power packs and far more total volume of waste than a Lithium powerd bike. Lead acid cells are recycled but this is a real nasty messy process. The impact of the same electrical vlaue in a non recycled LiPo and the same in a recycled pile of lead acid is less I suspect. Moving a 120 pound woman around in a 6000 pound SUV for a 8 oz starbuck$ coffee is a hella waste too.

I wonder if they can come up with a human powered bike? That would be cool.

[huskerdont]

@Vicegrip 175073 wrote:

I wonder if they can come up with a human powered bike? That would be cool.

My first (only?) real LOL moment at work today.

[lordofthemark]

@sjclaeys 175050 wrote:

This reminds me of a conversation that I had yesterday with someone who works with the lithium ion battery industry. As of now, there is no way to recycle lithium ion batteries, so all of those batteries full of nasty chemicals are going into the waste stream. So how are e-bikes environmentally friendly again?

Compared to what? Pretty sure the Lithium Ion batteries generated by someone riding an ebike for 10 years, compared to someone driving a plug in electric SUV (or even a sedan) are a lot less. And I think its not hard to make the case that a plug in SUV is better than a conventionally fueled SUV – because the battery disposal problem is kind of small compared to all the problems associated with oil production, refining, and shipment (which are not trivial even leaving aside the GHGs)

[lordofthemark]

@Vicegrip 175073 wrote:

I wonder if they can come up with a human powered bike? That would be cool.

So, like, last night the City Manager of Alexandria presented the City Budget – I watched on Facebook live (yeah, I know). They said to comment, show you are listening. My comment was brief “Fund Vision Zero”. I got a long anti-VZ rant from some guy (who says he is a “Conservate American Patriot”) I am guessing that if he took to the city streets on an ebike, on a regular basis, he just might be more sympathetic to Vision Zero. Which would be good for all of us on human powered bikes.

[lordofthemark]

@Vicegrip 175045 wrote:

I wonder how many e-bikes will be on the road once the original battery takes a dump? E-bikes don’t fix the weather, roads, cars where to park and not get it stolen or stripped and other issues with year round cycling. At some point they will need a new battery. Unless you are real handy it will retail for a good % of the original cost of the bike. I bet we start seeing craigs list “Great bike, all there, just needs a battery” ads.

https://ebikemarketplace.com/collections/48v-batteries

Looks like there is already a market for replacement/rebuild batteries. I can’t judge the details (how long are those rebuilds really good for?) but the prices don’t seem that high compared to retail for the bikes, or compared to what I know some people will spend for stuff for their bikes. Compared to auto maintenance, its not bad at all.

[sjclaeys]

@Vicegrip 175073 wrote:

The person might be confusing can with does. Lithium cells are 100% recycable and it is against the law in most places to to simply drop most forms of power cells in the trash. Even if not recycled they should enter the E waste stream along with all the other 2 years and done digital stuff. The issue is that unlike lead based cells there is little $ value in the materals in each Lithium cell as the raw materal cost is about 3% of the retail cost. The push should be to recycle them for eviro reasons rather than the present $ based format. They are also less toxic than other forms. Lithium cells also are suplanting the older non rechargable cells. Rather than the 50 or 100 one use cells over a device lifespan it is only the Lithium cells that came with it that enter the waste stream at the device end of life. This delta is ever growing as they improve the lifespans. Gel cell lead acid e-bikes would go through many more power packs and far more total volume of waste than a Lithium powerd bike. Lead acid cells are recycled but this is a real nasty messy process. The impact of the same electrical vlaue in a non recycled LiPo and the same in a recycled pile of lead acid is less I suspect. Moving a 120 pound woman around in a 6000 pound SUV for a 8 oz starbuck$ coffee is a hella waste too.

I wonder if they can come up with a human powered bike? That would be cool.

Sorry, but this guy is directly involved in the environmental aspects of lithium batteries, including their regulation and disposal, so he’s pretty much of an expert on the issue.

[Author]

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