e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[dasgeh]

@hozn 174696 wrote:

I think we have quite different perspectives on this, though, as cargo e-bikes account for a tiny fraction of the e-bikes I have ever encountered and 0% of the ones I see on a regular basis on my commute.

Interesting. I’m certain the majority (at least 3/4) of the folks I know (personally and through internet family-bike circles) who use cargo bikes for kids on the regular have ebikes. (The Taga and Radwagon have really helped that). I’m also pretty sure that majority of cargo bikes that have come on Kidical Mass rides have been ebikes, but I’ve never counted.

@lordofthemark 174697 wrote:

It wouldn’t force a detour on Class 1 ebike riders. Nor on Class 3 ebike riders who are willing ride the general travel lanes (unless you mean that detouring from 14th Street bridge to memorial bridge is a huge detour) It would be a problem for that subset of Class 3 riders who are uncomfortable with the general travel lanes on Memorial or Key, or who need to get from NoVa to parts of DC where not taking 14th street bridge means a big detour.

See above on why some ebike riders won’t be Class 1, and I’ll say it again – I’m about as “bold and fearless” of a rider as they come (on the fast ebike, wo kids), but even I won’t take Key or Memorial in the travel lanes. Has anyone actually done it (at normal times — not 8am Sunday morning, when I know some roadies take Key -> Whitehurst to get to Hains). And when thinking about the detour, you have to think about the detour on both sides of the river.

These rules would just push more people off of bikes – and most likely into cars. I don’t see why that’s a better solution.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 174755 wrote:

As I’ve said so many times here, to make any bikes usable as a transportation option in this area, they have to be able to get to all the destinations people need transportation to. That includes some monster hills. .[/QUOTe]
My bike is usable as a transportation option. I commuted to the office on it this morning. Last week I used it get groceries. But given my abilities, my comfort in traffic, the existing infrastructure, and distances, I cannot use it to get to ALL the destinations I need transportation.

I think what you mean is that bikes cannot be the exclusive or almost exclusive means of transportation for people until they can go to all destinations. That is an admirable goal, one I would love to see accomplished. But there are inevitable tradeoffs – whether its $ for infra, legitimate needs for on street parking and for general travel lane space, etc. And one of those needs is for pedestrian comfort on trails and sidewalks. Now it would be ideal if we could make all pedestrians comfortable by regulating cyclist behavior. That would make the tradeoffs easier. Just as it would make the tradeoffs easier if we could perfectly regulate motorist behavior. If all motorists were complete PALs, then all those people worrying about a car “bearing down behind” would not have to worry. We could all be happy VCers, and the only reason for seg infra at all would be to expedite flow (and to separate riders from tailpipe fumes) From your concern with that situation, I suspect you do not believe we can come close to complete safety and especially comfort via enforcement. I think it is clear that we can’t on the trails either, and therefore some compromise is needed. I have gradually shifted to a more pro-ebike position on the nature of that compromise, in part because of some of the things you have posted (also my concern with a plateauing in bike mode share) I can only say that I think your considerable knowledge and logic would be much more compelling on this, if you seemed to be more willing to acknowledge the tradeoffs involved in your position.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 174756 wrote:

These rules would just push more people off of bikes – and most likely into cars. I don’t see why that’s a better solution.

Because pushing some people from bikes into cars (by, say, not allowing Class 3 ebikes on the Key Bridge side path) might be a needed tradeoff for the comfort of walkers on the Key Bridge. Whose discomfort is a genuine cost in itself. And whose discomfort MIGHT lead some of them to drive instead of walk. And whose discomfort might lead some of them to an anti-veloist position on a range of issues. (to determine whether the tradeoff is desirable, we actually need some data)

As advocates for multimodalism, we can’t only ask “does this maximize bike mode share?” There are going to be some options that do NOT maximize bike mode share, that are still the right options.

[Dewey]

@dasgeh 174755 wrote:

1) Throttle…is key to getting from 0mph to 10mph in these situations.
2)Power, try going uphill with 3 kids on your bike, or your overweight self on your trike with 250W.

…to make any bikes usable as a transportation option in this area, they have to be able to get to all the destinations people need transportation to. That includes some monster hills. That also includes routes where the only safe way to get there is the trail/sidepath.

The way to make biking work for everyone is to allow the tools that allow everyone to bike on the routes people need to bike on. And we need the trails to work for everyone, so REGULATE BEHAVIOR

1) Throttle: I chose not to fit the throttle with my kit motor to keep it a Class 1 pedelec, my knees don’t thank me when starting from a stop going uphill, also I love using the 3mph walk assist feature to help me push my bike up a ramp or up a kerb cut when towing a child trailer, and I’ve had a few close calls commuting to work where I’ve struck my pedal or bashed my derailleur into a sidewalk kerb stone when trying to ride in the gutter slowly past a line of cars on my heavy ebike, so I’ve come to appreciate how a Class 2 throttle would be very useful for people with knackered knees or heavy loads to get started or simply move slowly and keep balance without pedalling.

2) Power: I appreciate the US is more relaxed about ebike power than other countries for the reasons you give about needing varying levels of power to climb hills carrying or towing a load, I’m mostly happy with my 36v BBS01 250w motor although I have to stand on the pedals when towing a child trailer and groceries up the steepest parts of the Custis trail. At some point in the future I’ll probably swap out the motor core with a 48v BBS02 motor and battery from Luna and program the controller to keep power/speed under the 750w/20mph legal limit just so I can have the benefit of the extra climbing torque delivered by the wider stator. Regarding speed I’m a utility cyclist living close in so I could accept a lower EU style 15mph limit, but I recognize Class 3 speeds enable suburban commuters to travel distance and keep up with traffic so I’d like them to remain legal to ride on roads.

Personally I’d like Virginia, Maryland, and the District to adopt the 3-tier ebike classification and permit Class 1 and 2 on MUPs, MUTs, and sidewalks in line with the new ebike laws being adopted by other states. The ebike confiscations in NYC are made possible only because of the City’s local no-throttle law so I’m wary when jurisdictions carve out exceptions but recognize this may be necessary on some heavily pedestrianized areas and business district sidewalks and footpaths. I love pedal assist and how the technology of cadence and torque sensors enable motors to complement human biomechanical pedalling and climb hills, and I recognize the benefit of a throttle in some situations, but as other posters have pointed out we need to get along and that includes recognizing people don’t want either legal Class 3 ebikes or illegal electric motorcycles on trails or sidewalks.

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 174761 wrote:

Because pushing some people from bikes into cars (by, say, not allowing Class 3 ebikes on the Key Bridge side path) might be a needed tradeoff for the comfort of walkers on the Key Bridge. Whose discomfort is a genuine cost in itself. And whose discomfort MIGHT lead some of them to drive instead of walk. And whose discomfort might lead some of them to an anti-veloist position on a range of issues. (to determine whether the tradeoff is desirable, we actually need some data)

As advocates for multimodalism, we can’t only ask “does this maximize bike mode share?” There are going to be some options that do NOT maximize bike mode share, that are still the right options.

You (and others) seem to think that ebikes somehow mean people bike as fast as they can go all the time, regardless of context/safety. That’s ridiculous. Most people don’t do this on manual bikes, and they don’t do this on ebikes.

So Key Bridge is a great example. Often, the max speed for cyclists that keeps peds safe and comfortable is less than 10mph. Most bikes – manual and e- – can exceed that. So should we ban all bikes from that sidepath because of the ability to go faster than what would keep peds safe and comfortable? What’s specially about ebikes in that situation that they should be banned but not road bikes?

And I should have said “focus on” behavior rather than “regulate.” You’re right that enforcement alone won’t work. But there are plenty of options that we haven’t even tried. Designing trails with behavior modification in mind; signage; providing alternate routes (with smooth transitions) that are more attractive to faster cyclists.

The advantage of the “allow lots of ebikes everywhere, and address all cyclist behavior on trails” is that it gets more people out of cars and makes the trails safer than they are today.

[dasgeh]

@Dewey 174765 wrote:

recognizing people don’t want either legal Class 3 ebikes or illegal electric motorcycles on trails or sidewalks.

I’ve never heard of anyone except people who already ride manual bikes for transportation often knowing anything about Class 3 ebikes. I have heard – SO MANY TIMES – that we need to address cyclists in general riding too fast for conditions on trails. Seems like someone who takes the position that a Class 3 ebike should not be on a trail because of its ability to go faster than what’s comfortable for people walking on trails needs to recognize that most people think ALL bikes can go faster than what’s comfortable for people walking on trails — which would lead to the logically conclusion that ALL bikes should be banned from trails.

I think trails should be shared, and we should focus on the behavior of trail users to make that work.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 174769 wrote:

And I should have said “focus on” behavior rather than “regulate.” You’re right that enforcement alone won’t work. But there are plenty of options that we haven’t even tried. Designing trails with behavior modification in mind; signage; providing alternate routes (with smooth transitions) that are more attractive to faster cyclists.

Great–do that thing, then let’s talk about more ebikes.

[OneEighth]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16944[/ATTACH]

[Judd]

@dasgeh 174756 wrote:

, but even I won’t take Key or Memorial in the travel lanes. Has anyone actually done it (at normal times — not 8am Sunday morning, when I know some roadies take Key -> Whitehurst to get to Hains).

I’ve taken a lane on Key a couple of times on weekends during the day.

[Dewey]

@dasgeh 174770 wrote:

Seems like someone who takes the position that a Class 3 ebike should not be on a trail because of its ability to go faster than what’s comfortable for people walking on trails needs to recognize that most people think ALL bikes can go faster than what’s comfortable for people walking on trails — which would lead to the logically conclusion that ALL bikes should be banned from trails.

I think trails should be shared, and we should focus on the behavior of trail users to make that work.

You’re right that line of thinking isn’t a reasonable position. Class 3 commuters are as likely as Class 1 and 2 to want to use safer bicycle infrastructure close in. Federal/states customs inspectors aren’t funded to identify and impound imports or go after the retailers who undermine legal ebikes. People who ride electric motorcycles on private land want those products. I agree it is anti-social behavior people are concerned about, so a combination of a legal structure and certification system for ebike sales, self-regulating behavior through education, speed limits and remote monitoring/regulating technology, better alternative bike infrastructure, and fines enforcement, could all be part of a compromise acceptable to most. I also recognize that change will require political will and money to happen or we’re stuck with a confusing local patchwork of conflicting laws, with ebikes being treated inequitably.

[Judd]

@OneEighth 174772 wrote:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16944[/ATTACH]

There was a dude doing a wheelie on one of these last night on the Maine Ave Cycletrack outside of the HP100 Happy Hour.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OneEighth]

I regularly ride in traffic on Key anytime we get a noticeable amount frozen precipitation and I don’t feel like switching wheel sets or dealing with ruts.
Not dead yet.

[phog]

Test report on my e-bike build: it is a game-changer. Its maiden voyage to work and back was yesterday.

My background: I used to bike to work near the Capitol from Arlington every day in the early 90s. I used to have legs like steel bands. I’ve been motorcycle commuting for the last 20 years or so from West Falls Church to downtown. I still ride a bicycle to work on occasion, but don’t like to do the 28 mile round trip in a day. It’s brutal. So sometimes I use my motorcycle bike rack (a sight to see) to ferry my bicycle to work for a one-way trip bicycle ride home, and ride it to work the next day when I’m fresh. My wife wanted a pedal-assist e-bike for her commute (she usually drives but took a bike a few times last year) so I have assembled and e-bike rig to an existing mountain bike (didn’t want to tamper with her nice, newish 700MM wheel bike, and e-bike wheels for a 26″ bike are cheaper).

The bike: a used Schwinn Frontier, tiny 15″ chrome-moly frame (worth about $50). 26″ mountain tires, front fork suspension, centerpull rim brakes.
Motor: 48v, 1000w brushless rear wheel, with tire, gearset, spindle and controller, thumb throttle, replacement brake levers with motor cutout switches. Cost $140.
Rear rack: aluminum cantilevered seat-post mount, with support legs as well. Very strong and light. Model B671 on Ebay. Cost : $16.
Storage: All gear stored in stereo pannier (M-WAVE Amsterdam) ($35) for low center of gravity and weather protection. Hard to tell it is an e-bike because the pannier partly covers the rear wheel motor. There is also a little room left over for personal belongings.
Batteries: Used two sets for the test. Four small Bikemaster 12v motorcycle lithium batteries (very light, 5 pounds 4 OZ) ($200) in one pannier, alongside the controller, and pack #2 is four 12v 10AH lithium batteries (“reasonably” light, 12 pounds) ($300) in the other pannier. Both battery banks, and the controller, have Anderson Powerpole disconnects so a battery bank bag can be quickly pulled from the bike pannier and taken with you.

Report: bike handles well, and the front of the bike, though much lighter than the rear, is stable and responsive. Bike still functions well when pedaling when there is no power to the motor, and brakes, though rim and not disk, stop the bike quickly and solidly. If you were to max this thing out at 30 MPH, you’d probably want disk brakes. But this test was for normal pedaling speeds, with motor assist for hills and exertion issues. The motor has a sophisticated phased power input and motor position sensor output to the control unit, so there is controllable but considerable torque off the line. I rigged the thumb controller to remain at whatever set position I selected so I wouldn’t have keep working it on hills. I’d start it by pedaling in a lower gear, then hit the throttle as soon as I was moving and as I shifted to high gear, then pedaled with the throttle off. Under throttle there is no bogging at all on hills. The rig is never wanting for more power. A lazy cyclist could fly on this thing everywhere and never pedal, but the power demands would be considerable. I took the W&OD and Custis trails and, to test the tiny motorcycle batteries first, used the motor (quite a bit) with pedal assist, and pedal-only on the straights. It took me only five miles, and the on-board battery circuitry that prevents full discharge abruptly cut power to the controller. Then I hot-swapped to the other bank for the rest of the way. I recharged the 10AH pack at work and it took me all 14 miles home even though there are many more hills in that direction. They were just about depleted by the end of the trip, so I’s say that the range of a 10AH pack is 6-40 miles, depending upon how much you use it. Generally on the flats I’d cycle only, giving it a quick throttle at some junctures so I could then effortlessly pedal along in high gear. It was so wonderful to have a quick squirt of power whenever I wanted it! Down hills I would coast and relax at times when I normally would be doing whatever I could to get to get some momentum for the next hill. Up the hills and under throttle, I found myself pedaling with minor downshifting for pedal assist. Except for downshifting in anticipation of a near/full stop, I found that I didn’t shift much like I normally would be. One nice thing was that if I needed to slow to a crawl behind a pedestrian because there was an oncoming bike, after that bike passed and then went around the walker I could hit the throttle and be back up to cruising speed within seconds with no effort, and then could resume pedaling normally. In general I found that the usual considerate behaviour of slowing down when overtaking a dog walker was more joyful when I could easily get back my previous speed after passing. So being on an e-bike does not necessarily compel one to be a daredevil, quite the opposite if you have the mindset for it. My commute is usually 0:25 on a motorcycle on the highway, 1:00 should I take a METRO train (if there are no delays), 1:15 TO work on bicycle, 1:45 home on bicycle (due to hills/ being tired). With the motor assist it was 1:00 each way, but It wasn’t because I was going ant faster on the straights; it was because the I could take the hills at regular speed. There’s no way I could physically do this round trip every day on a regular bicycle, but yesterday, though I pedaled quite a bit with no assist, I wasn’t the least bit tired afterward.

I’m back to my motorcycle today but as far as I’m concerned my experiment passes the test. For lightness I’d go with only the tiny battery pack if I had a short commute and I was conserving the motor for hill assist only. But It’s the 10AH @ 48V batteries for the win if you want some real range or more assist. There are massive 20AH batteries in the market but IMO that would make the bike a bit heavy for your regular cycling without assist. 35 pound bike, 15 pound rear wheel/motor/controller (slightly heavier, but subtract the wheel and gearset that was removed), 6 pounds of rack and pannier, 12 pounds of batteries (10AH) = heavy but still manageable, but some might want to remove the batteries and carry them separately, if lifting the bike up a flight of stairs, or onto a car rack.[ATTACH=CONFIG]17042[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]17043[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]17041
Pics: Heavy 10AH packs (4) on scale, aluminum rack mounts to seatpost and frame or lugs, and is height adjustable in front and back, and deck adjusts on rail. Schwinn with everything installed, my wife’s Trek Seventy-four in the background.

[huskerdont]

I’ve taken the lane on Key Bridge many times, but I’ve never enjoyed it. I’ve tried because I am uncomfortable riding past so many pedestrians on the sidewalk there who have varying levels of comfort and experience and sense around bikes. I cannot imagine using an e-cargo bike on the Key Bridge sidewalk. Riding something like that there would feel (be?) rude and unsafe, no matter the speed. But it’s clear to me that some cyclists are not concerned about the comfort or fear of pedestrians, which makes me sad. Pedestrians should be able to use the sidewalk without feeling afraid or being unduly startled.

Key Bridge needs a bike lane, though that wouldn’t solve the whole problem. You see people riding on the sidewalk downtown all the time when there is a bike lane right next to them.

[scoot]

I typically use the sidepaths on Key Bridge itself, but I ride the roadways in Virginia (Lynn / Ft Myer) and DC (M St) leading to the bridge. So I use the downstream sidewalk inbound and the upstream sidewalk outbound. When the sidewalks were intermittently closed for construction last year, I took the right-most open lane across the bridge rather than try to cross over to the “wrong” sidewalk. I can’t say it was comfortable (especially on a CaBi at 6pm), and I did get honked at, but I experienced no dangerously close passes.

Key Bridge desperately needs a bicycle lane in each direction. Those sidewalks are inadequate for the growing number of users.

[Author]

Posts