Covet

[GovernorSilver]

@sethpo 121357 wrote:

I can’t really add much to that although I did go to Ogden to get fitted and pick up my Viaje. The experience was fantastic and Ogden was a surprisingly fun town. If you can, add in some time to do some riding. You can climb over the pass and ride around the lake in Ogden Valley or ride west towards the Great Salt Lake on flat, rural roads. I did both

My bike is a 57cm. If you think that’s close to your size, you are welcome to give it a spin.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9262[/ATTACH]

I’d have to look at my receipt from Papillon Cycles to see what the size of my current bike is. 😮

Thanks for the offer, as well as the report on your experience traveling to Ogden. The travel aspect is a big draw for me.

Hopefully Bikenetic will have a Viaje that is the right size (but the wrong color or something so I still have the excuse to travel) that I can try out.

[GovernorSilver]

Different kind of a covet – a possible crankset upgrade for my Breezer Uptown 8, pending further research:

http://pattersonbike.com/patterson-transmission-crankset/

2-speed internally geared crankset – 28T physical chain ring and 45T virtual chain ring – sounds like it’d be an improvement over the stock 38T single ring crankset. Invented by Sam Patterson, founder of SRAM.

If this works out, the Breezer becomes a nice backup/rainy day commuter for my future Viaje/Straggler/etc.

[DismalScientist]

Can one of you internal gear fetishists (:rolleyes:) explain the appeal of an internal geared crank? I would think that the range of an 8 speed internal hub would be sufficient that adding a two speed crank would have little benefits. Now, one might want to pair an internally geared crank with narrow range rear hub, but in that instance, why not just go with more gears in the rear? Also, this crank weighs almost 4 pounds.

[GovernorSilver]

@DismalScientist 121436 wrote:

why not just go with more gears in the rear?

Because the internal gear hub is sealed, I’m guessing you can’t just add more gears. Replacing the crankset with the Metropolis looks like a clean solution for increasing the gearing range in both directions. The stock 38T chain ring ensures I stay slower than most other riders in the flat, and expend more effort climbing too. I’m open to suggestions though if you know of a better solution, other than “buy another bike” (see last paragraph below ).

I got my bike because it was on sale and appeared to have the bells and whistles I wanted (rack, fender, lights), and I didn’t do enough homework on the various types of bikes, components, etc. 😮 BTW, the bike weighs about 34lbs with the stock components so it’s too late to worry about weight savings. :p

I can’t offer any more arguments in favor of IGH’s than the usual, widely known ones.

None of the bikes I’m looking at for N+1 (Volagi, Surly, Salsa, etc.) have IGH….

[mstone]

@GovernorSilver 121442 wrote:

Because the internal gear hub is sealed, I’m guessing you can’t just add more gears. Replacing the crankset with the Metropolis looks like a clean solution for increasing the gearing range in both directions. The stock 38T chain ring ensures I stay slower than most other riders in the flat, and expend more effort climbing too. I’m open to suggestions though if you know of a better solution, other than “buy another bike” (see last paragraph below ).

It’s not a racing bike, don’t try to race it. If you want a lower gear, I think you can change out the cog.

[GovernorSilver]

@mstone 121448 wrote:

It’s not a racing bike, don’t try to race it.

No, I don’t race. I could see though why you would read it that way.

@mstone 121448 wrote:

If you want a lower gear, I think you can change out the cog.

Seems like it would easier to just replace the stock crankset with a compact double of some sort.

[DismalScientist]

Do you want both higher and lower gears or just a higher top gear with a corresponding increase in the lower gears?

If you want a greater rear range, the easiest thing is to just use an 11 speed internal hub. You’ll need and new rear wheel with an 11 speed IGH and a new shifter. This will likely be not significantly more expensive that the 2-speed internally-geared crank. Perhaps you should have bought a Breezer 11 to begin with,:rolleyes: if that exists.

If you just want a higher high gear (with a corresponding higher low gear), all you need is a smaller rear cog or a larger front chainring. This will, of course, cause potential chain length issues. This should be the cheapest way to get higher gearing.

[GovernorSilver]

As it turns out, somebody already went with a Shimano Nexus 8 + Patterson Metropolis combo 3 years ago, so I’m not a pioneer.

http://thehubbikecoop.blogspot.com/2012/08/let-patterson-transmission-enhance-your.html

[jabberwocky]

SRAM has had the HammerSchmidt around for a while now. https://www.sram.com/truvativ/family/hammerschmidt

It achieved some success in the DH/FR world. Never seen one on a trail bike. With the advent of wide range 1×10 and 1×11 systems it doesn’t seem as useful anymore. I agree with what others are saying. If you want wider range than get a wider range IGH. If you just want to shift your range up or down change the chainring.

[DismalScientist]

Looking at Sheldon Brown’s gear calculator, a standard Breezer 8 with a 38 tooth chainring and 18 tooth cog gives a gear inch range of 27.7 to 84.8. I would think that both are too low. For comparison, my fixie runs about 70 gear inches. Old ten speeds had ranges of 40 to 100. Only old touring bikes got down in the twenties.

Using the two speed crank will give you a gear range of 20.4 to 100.4. (This will still introduce chain length issues as the 2 speed crank has shorter circumference.) While the top gear looks more appropriate, 20.4 is ridiculously low for riding around here.

If instead you change the rear cog to 16 teeth, the gear range is 31.1 to 95.4, which seems reasonable, although a bit low for my tastes.

With derailleur systems, they added a front derailleur because it is a mechanically simple way to greatly increase gear range while still allowing small differences between gears by closely spaced cogs in back. Most of the important mechanics is done by the rear derailleur, as it both moves the chain between cogs and takes up the chain tension. All the front derailleur does is just forcing the chain one direction or the other on a single axis. Adding multiple chainrings on a crank is relatively trivial.

On the other hand, for internal gearing, if you do multispeed cranks, you now have two complicated mechanisms rather than one. While internal gearing simplifies some maintenance issues, is adds complexity to others, like changing a tire.

[GovernorSilver]

@jabberwocky 121460 wrote:

SRAM has had the HammerSchmidt around for a while now. https://www.sram.com/truvativ/family/hammerschmidt

It achieved some success in the DH/FR world. Never seen one on a trail bike. With the advent of wide range 1×10 and 1×11 systems it doesn’t seem as useful anymore. I agree with what others are saying. If you want wider range than get a wider range IGH. If you just want to shift your range up or down change the chainring.

The Patterson Metropolis costs less than the HammerSchmidt (mentioned in the article I linked btw). It also costs less than a wider range IGH. Sam Patterson was a founder of SRAM, btw.

I got a response from the coop in Minnesota that outfitted a bike with the Nexus 8 + Metropolis combo. 3 years later, it is still in in use by the owner, though he prefers to use it in winter.

I still welcome everyone’s opinions, but my homework so far has only turned up one negative review out of everyone who’s installed a Metropolis – and this guy put it on a touring bike with a 100lb load. Everyone else seems to be happy.

[mstone]

@GovernorSilver 121450 wrote:

Seems like it would easier to just replace the stock crankset with a compact double of some sort.

A new rear cog is less than ten bucks. If you get a smaller one you don’t even need a new chain. Otherwise, hold out until you need a new chain. One nice thing about those IGHs is that you can use an old school bombproof chain. How long have you had this bike? Are you confident you know what needs to change? Honestly, the internally geared crank seems a bit screwy. Do you really need more low, or is that something that will be easier with time? (Like, are you having to walk the bike?) Do you really need more high or can you spin faster? If you do need more range on one end, changing the rear cog is simple & cheap. If you really need range on both ends then there aren’t any great options. But that’s not really all that common unless you’re trying to use the bike out of it’s comfort zone. (E.g., my folder has a 7 speed IGH, and I’ve been very impressed with the range and performance, but it’s not the bike I reach for when I’m touring or riding a century because the range and performance aren’t that good. On the other hand, my other bikes suck for fitting in the car and leave chain schmutz on anything they touch.)

[GovernorSilver]

@DismalScientist 121454 wrote:

Do you want both higher and lower gears or just a higher top gear with a corresponding increase in the lower gears?

If you want a greater rear range, the easiest thing is to just use an 11 speed internal hub. You’ll need and new rear wheel with an 11 speed IGH and a new shifter. This will likely be not significantly more expensive that the 2-speed internally-geared crank. Perhaps you should have bought a Breezer 11 to begin with,:rolleyes: if that exists.

If you just want a higher high gear (with a corresponding higher low gear), all you need is a smaller rear cog or a larger front chainring. This will, of course, cause potential chain length issues. This should be the cheapest way to get higher gearing.

Heh, as noted earlier I bought the Breezer without doing sufficient homework beforehand. I found it on sale at Papillon, and bought it. It’s Yuri’s fault for using that deadly soft sell technique on me. There should be a law against bike shops being occupied by adorable dogs. Ok, I was also impatient at the time to just get a bike and start riding already, after completing WABA’s “how to ride” class.

Looks like you may be right about an 11-speed IGH not costing much more. I see Jenson USA sells an Alfine 11-speed IGH for about $350. That plus a corresponding replacement twist shifter and replacement wheel may indeed be the simplest upgrade solution for the Breezer. I’ll probably hold off on these upgrades until I call Papillon on their free tuneup within 12 months deal that came with the bike. I’ll have to drop off the Breezer at the shop anyway for the tuneup. Hopefully by then I’ll have my 2nd bike.

Looking at your other post (I may have to reread it again), I’m not sure there’s a such thing as too low of a gear range in my neighborhood. I live on a hill which is 9% grade at the bottom and levels off to 7% as I climb towards my house. I know some of y’all can climb a hill like that at 17 mph no sweat, though.

[GovernorSilver]

@mstone 121475 wrote:

A new rear cog is less than ten bucks. If you get a smaller one you don’t even need a new chain. Otherwise, hold out until you need a new chain. One nice thing about those IGHs is that you can use an old school bombproof chain. How long have you had this bike? Are you confident you know what needs to change? Honestly, the internally geared crank seems a bit screwy. Do you really need more low, or is that something that will be easier with time? (Like, are you having to walk the bike?) Do you really need more high or can you spin faster? If you do need more range on one end, changing the rear cog is simple & cheap. If you really need range on both ends then there aren’t any great options. But that’s not really all that common unless you’re trying to use the bike out of it’s comfort zone. (E.g., my folder has a 7 speed IGH, and I’ve been very impressed with the range and performance, but it’s not the bike I reach for when I’m touring or riding a century because the range and performance aren’t that good. On the other hand, my other bikes suck for fitting in the car and leave chain schmutz on anything they touch.)

I’ve climbed the hill up to my house more times than I’ve given up and walked the bike home. I’m more likely to walk the bike if I’m carrying too much weight in my panniers and/or I’ve done a lot of hard riding on the way home.

I’d like to improve the higher range more than the lower, since my climbing has been gradually improving. So far I’ve only really needed speed when I’m riding on the street with parking space to my right, and a motorist driving in the same direction but creeping up to me instead of passing at a faster speed relative to mine. When I see a car doing that, I know I have to pedal hard, because I know that I’m going to be right-hooked otherwise by the driver who is looking to park.

Since my Breezer is at the shop now, I could call them and ask them to replace the rear cog with a smaller one, to improve the top end gearing just a bit as you suggest.

[mstone]

@GovernorSilver 121482 wrote:

Since my Breezer is at the shop now, I could call them and ask them to replace the rear cog with a smaller one, to improve the top end gearing just a bit as you suggest.

Definitely worth doing, as it should be cheap and give you a better idea of what to expect from the bike. If you do n+1 and switch the bike to a winter bike, you’ll probably want to go the other direction, especially if you go with studs. (I’ve never heard anyone complain that the gears on their studded bike aren’t tall enough.) But it’s just about as easy to switch back.

[Author]

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