e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[buschwacker]

@Dewey 183285 wrote:

POI I understand 750w is 1hp source: https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/93295/low.pdf

You’re right – I thought Google told me 1000W = 1 hp, but that’s not true either. Thanks for the correction.

[dasgeh]

@n18 183255 wrote:

Unfortunately, without restrictions, we get jerks who would abuse the trails, and then more calls to restrict them. In other states, they came up with no E-Bikes signs, and trust me, they are not pretty to look at. It disadvantage people with health issues and seniors. See this Google mages link.
[…]
I suppose that instead of GPS/RFID that E-Bikes could have two buttons(Road/Trail), so the user presses one depending on the situation, but there is nothing stopping jerks from using Road mode always.

To your first point, from my relatively long, but admittedly anecdotal experience I think that ebikers are, on average, more polite bikers than non-ebikers. They’re more willing to slow behind a ped, more willing to stop at reds, more likely to give lots of room when passing. I think it goes to the human inclination to not want to “waste” speed that you’ve “earned” — on an ebike, you don’t feel so invested in your speed, getting back up to speed is easy, and you feel like it’s easy to “make up” lost time.

On your second point, most ebikes (all that I’ve ridden, except CaBi Plus?) have multiple settings. They don’t limit the speed, but limit the assist, which is better at making an ebike like a regular bike, anyway (because “trail” mode wouldn’t be limited to 10mph all the time — most people can get even a CaBi up to at least 15 if not 20mph on a good downhill — not that they should, just making things alike).

Generally, I think ebikes flatten the ability curve. Sure, there should be a restriction such that we don’t give ebikers super-human abilities, but it’s reasonable to give them fit-human abilities, then trust that folks on ebikes, just like fit-humans on non-ebikes, will behave appropriately.

[zsionakides]

@dasgeh 183287 wrote:

Generally, I think ebikes flatten the ability curve. Sure, there should be a restriction such that we don’t give ebikers super-human abilities, but it’s reasonable to give them fit-human abilities, then trust that folks on ebikes, just like fit-humans on non-ebikes, will behave appropriately.

The main issue is that ebikes are flattening the curve the wrong way. E-bikes that are assisting up to 20 and 28 mph change the average speed on trails upwards and let more riders be jerks at high speeds, even if many e-bike riders aren’t jerks. This creates a safety issue by increasing the speed differential between walkers and high speed e-bikes and greatly increases the severity of accidents that occur.

If the assist was capped at 10 or 15 mph under penalty of being 100% liable for any violation of this type of vehicle, that would be different, but that’s not what the legislation has been modeled on.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@zsionakides 183312 wrote:

The main issue is that ebikes are flattening the curve the wrong way. E-bikes that are assisting up to 20 and 28 mph change the average speed on trails upwards and let more riders be jerks at high speeds, even if many e-bike riders aren’t jerks. This creates a safety issue by increasing the speed differential between walkers and high speed e-bikes and greatly increases the severity of accidents that occur.

I get that some people “feel” that this is true, but I just don’t believe it absent actual data. Have trail collisions gone up? Has the severity of injuries increased? Are e-bikes involved in a disproportionate number of these collisions? Show me the data and I’ll change my mind, but otherwise the arguments boil down to tribalism and little else.

[zsionakides]

@TwoWheelsDC 183313 wrote:

I get that some people “feel” that this is true, but I just don’t believe it absent actual data. Have trail collisions gone up? Has the severity of injuries increased? Are e-bikes involved in a disproportionate number of these collisions? Show me the data and I’ll change my mind, but otherwise the arguments boil down to tribalism and little else.

There probably isn’t very good data, or really any data, on trail collisions, but the physics and science would support e-bikes causing worse, and probably more frequent, collisions than regular bikes. E-bikes weigh more than a regular bike which increases the force of a collision and would increase the severity of injuries. Traveling at higher speeds increases the force of an accident exponentially, which also increases the severity of injuries in that accident. Speed differentials causes higher proportions of crashes in automobiles, and that can probably be a reasonable proxy for MUPs.

[Judd]

@zsionakides 183322 wrote:

There probably isn’t very good data, or really any data, on trail collisions, but the physics and science would support e-bikes causing worse, and probably more frequent, collisions than regular bikes. E-bikes weigh more than a regular bike which increases the force of a collision and would increase the severity of injuries. Traveling at higher speeds increases the force of an accident exponentially, which also increases the severity of injuries in that accident. Speed differentials causes higher proportions of crashes in automobiles, and that can probably be a reasonable proxy for MUPs.

I just checked the past few weeks of my rides on Strava in which I have ridden a gravel bike, my commuter bike, a single speed, CaBi, CaBi Plus and a Lime-E.

My average speed on a CaBi is usually a bit below 9 mph. Most of my CaBi Plus rides have been around 10-11 mph. I was faster going up hill on a single speed. I was way faster going up lots of hills on my gravel bike. I usually average around 13 on my commuter bike. My fastest CaBi Plus Ride averaged 14 mph which was going mostly downhill when most trail users were still at home in bed.

So at least in my case I am only slightly faster most of the time on an E-Bike and still slower than on my commuter. I go about the same speed, but it’s easier and allows me to show up places not sweaty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Judd 183326 wrote:

I just checked the past few weeks of my rides on Strava in which I have ridden a gravel bike, my commuter bike, a single speed, CaBi, CaBi Plus and a Lime-E.

My average speed on a CaBi is usually a bit below 9 mph. Most of my CaBi Plus rides have been around 10-11 mph. I was faster going up hill on a single speed. I was way faster going up lots of hills on my gravel bike. I usually average around 13 on my commuter bike. My fastest CaBi Plus Ride averaged 14 mph which was going mostly downhill when most trail users were still at home in bed.

So at least in my case I am only slightly faster most of the time on an E-Bike and still slower than on my commuter. I go about the same speed, but it’s easier and allows me to show up places not sweaty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My morning e-bike commute today was 3 minutes SLOWER than my non-e-bike morning commute yesterday.

[Judd]

@TwoWheelsDC 183340 wrote:

My morning e-bike commute today was 3 minutes SLOWER than my non-e-bike morning commute yesterday.

Sounds reckless.

[hozn]

Sounds like TwoWheels is doing something wrong!

I had the pleasure of drafting a guy yesterday who was wearing jeans and loafers on the W&OD and cruising at 25mph, until he turned off just before Vienna. That’s a nice drafting speed; I love it when I can benefit from all that free wattage too.

[buschwacker]

@hozn 183390 wrote:

Sounds like TwoWheels is doing something wrong!

I had the pleasure of drafting a guy yesterday who was wearing jeans and loafers on the W&OD and cruising at 25mph, until he turned off just before Vienna. That’s a nice drafting speed; I love it when I can benefit from all that free wattage too.

I’ve been thinking of putting a “Drafting Welcome” sign on my back on my daily e-bike commute. Would that go over well do you think?

[hozn]

@buschwacker 183392 wrote:

I’ve been thinking of putting a “Drafting Welcome” sign on my back on my daily e-bike commute. Would that go over well do you think?

Yeah, I suspect it would. Certainly I’d love it!

[TwoWheelsDC]

@hozn 183390 wrote:

Sounds like TwoWheels is doing something wrong!

I had the pleasure of drafting a guy yesterday who was wearing jeans and loafers on the W&OD and cruising at 25mph, until he turned off just before Vienna. That’s a nice drafting speed; I love it when I can benefit from all that free wattage too.

Even if my bike could cruise that fast, which it can’t, I certainly couldn’t do it on any of the trail sections of my commute. The CCT is in such shitty condition that, above about 15mph, it’ll rattle the fillings out of your teeth.

[Dewey]

Ohio passes PeopleForBikes ebike law making 11 states, New Jersey next. The article indicates they’re hoping to persuade legislators to introduce the legislation in Maryland and Virginia next year.

[PeteD]

New Ebike coming in August to a trail near you:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html

[buschwacker]

@PeteD 185104 wrote:

New Ebike coming in August to a trail near you:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html

That’s an electric motorcycle – it doesn’t even have pedals. Unless Harley Davidson has come full circle and is making bicycles again, 100 years later.

[Author]

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