e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[jnva]

@brendan 19254 wrote:

Note also, just like cyclist wattage output, the wattage required for a particular speed is approximately proportional to the *square* of the velocity (in the atmosphere). Slower is better if you want to maximize your distance.

Brendan

Excellent point. This is also why you just aren’t going to be seeing a lot of ebikes zipping around Arlington trails. It turns out that the amount of power needed to go above approximately 20mph is just not worth the extra weight in batteries you need to carry, not to mention all of the frame modifications needed to carry that weight. Motorcycles make more sense if you want speed.

[JeffB]

KLizotte (post #81) and jabberwocky (post #87) pretty much sum up my thinking on the use of e-bikes on the trails.

As for the idea that we should allow legal e-bikes on the trails:
A) They are already too many people going too fast on the trails as it is. We don’t need more.
Once some people begin riding legal e-bikes on the trails others will want to join in. And they may not be so discriminating in their choice of bike.
C) Asking the authorities to referee between legal and not legal e-bikes is a fool’s errand.
D) I use the CCT which in DC is monitored by the US Park Police. Given the state of their relations with the pedi-cabs on the mall last thing I want is for them to be spending time on the CCT.

About 2 years ago I encountered a fellow using an e-bike on the trail. The first time I was on the long straightaway by Fletcher’s boathouse about to pass another rider. I saw a skinny rider coming towards me sitting upright and pedaling slowly on what I took to be a mountain bike. He was some distance away and my quick read was that he was of absolutely no concern.

How wrong I was! No sooner had I begun to pull around the other rider when I noticed that the oncoming rider had closed the distance between us at an astonishing speed. I barely had enough time to throw my bike back to my side of the lane before he zipped by. I estimate he probably was going about 30 MPH.

I observed him a couple of other times as well over the next few weeks. Always going at the same very high speed. Apparently his behavior raised a number of complaints and the CCT organization put up a posting asking people to report their encounters with him.

Shortly after that I was riding home and saw a Montgomery Park Policeman (on the MD CCT portion) sitting on a motorcycle hidden in the bushes. I don’t know if they ever got him but I haven’t seen him since!

[jnva]

@JeffB 19257 wrote:

KLizotte (post #81) and jabberwocky (post #87) pretty much sum up my thinking on the use of e-bikes on the trails. [/quote]

Mark blacknell sums it up for me in post 11

Quote:

As for the idea that we should allow legal e-bikes on the trails:
A) They are already too many people going too fast on the trails as it is. We don’t need more.

Yes, we do need more if we are going to get people out of cars. Isn’t that the whole point. Another common theme I hear from this forum – “keep them off OUR trails.”. Yes, klizotte I read your post before you eited it and that’s pretty much what you wrote.

Quote:

Once some people begin riding legal e-bikes on the trails others will want to join in. And they may not be so discriminating in their choice of bike.

Oh, you mean like painting them pink? again, trails don’t belong to only the people on this forum.

Quote:

C) Asking the authorities to referee between legal and not legal e-bikes is a fool’s errand.

Who’s asking for that? You can’t purchase an illegal ebike.

Quote:

D) I use the CCT which in DC is monitored by the US Park Police. Given the state of their relations with the pedi-cabs on the mall last thing I want is for them to be spending time on the CCT.

Why? Are you doing something illegal on the CCT?

Quote:

About 2 years ago I encountered a fellow using an e-bike on the trail. The first time I was on the long straightaway by Fletcher’s boathouse about to pass another rider. I saw a skinny rider coming towards me sitting upright and pedaling slowly on what I took to be a mountain bike. He was some distance away and my quick read was that he was of absolutely no concern.

How wrong I was! No sooner had I begun to pull around the other rider when I noticed that the oncoming rider had closed the distance between us at an astonishing speed. I barely had enough time to throw my bike back to my side of the lane before he zipped by. I estimate he probably was going about 30 MPH.

I observed him a couple of other times as well over the next few weeks. Always going at the same very high speed. Apparently his behavior raised a number of complaints and the CCT organization put up a posting asking people to report their encounters with him.

Shortly after that I was riding home and saw a Montgomery Park Policeman (on the MD CCT portion) sitting on a motorcycle hidden in the bushes. I don’t know if they ever got him but I haven’t seen him since!

Yep, I know about that and he doesn’t ride there anymore. There are lots of bad behavior on the trial that I wish people would stop doing too.

My point – there is a transportation problem in this area that I believe can be somewhat solved by ebikes. I have a 35 mile round trip commute. I am one less car on the road not burning 2 gallons of gas every time I go to work. Of course charging batteries uses some fossil fuels, but here’s the important point – none of it (or less than 1%) comes from foreign oil. this is important! If more people start using the trails we can demand, and get better infrastructure. Please stop trying to persuade people to not bike to work, which is what I am hearing here.

[mstone]

@jnva 19258 wrote:

Yes, we do need more if we are going to get people out of cars. Isn’t that the whole point.

No, that’s your whole point. Others obviously have different points.

[jnva]

@mstone 19259 wrote:

No, that’s your whole point. Others obviously have different points.

Forum: Commuters
Thinking about riding to work? Or maybe doing some errands around town? Figure out what to wear and how to carry your belongings.

Isn’t that what this means? Using a bike instead of a car to commute?

[rcannon100]

I am not following this thread but
* ebikes already are on the trails
* I havent ever seen an ebike speed – I see them going faster than me (but that doesnt say much) (in fact, the only speeders I ever see are the Spandex Kings)
* Fed ebike rules are a great guide.
* ebikes permit people to ride who could not otherwise ride (like they are getting older, like me)
* Yes, more bikes the better.
* Nope, it aint my trail. I share it with everyone in the community. I am THRILLED to see so many people on it.

Not everyone is a 28 year old fit male. Digging up the Custis Trail is a barrier to a lot of people. Distance can be a barrier to a lot of people. An ebike lets people bike who could not otherwise be bike commuters.

Seems like a great idea… I assume at some point as I get older, in order to keep bike commuting, I will be on an ebike.

[mstone]

@jnva 19260 wrote:

Forum: Commuters
Thinking about riding to work? Or maybe doing some errands around town? Figure out what to wear and how to carry your belongings.

Isn’t that what this means? Using a bike instead of a car to commute?

the question is whether it’s a good idea to have your preferred kind of vehicle on the trails. you obviously have your opinion, others obviously have theirs, and the thread is just looping at this point.

[jnva]

@mstone 19269 wrote:

the question is whether it’s a good idea to have your preferred kind of vehicle on the trails. you obviously have your opinion, others obviously have theirs, and the thread is just looping at this point.

Looping – ok whatever… My preferred vehicle on the trail happens to be no vehicle. I do most of my running on the wod. My second preferred vehicle is a bike, just like most others on this forum. For commuting, it’s my ebike. I don’t think I’m alone here, like I said before I’m just trying to add some sense to some of these posts that may be discouraging people from bike commuting who could easily do it with an ebike.

[dasgeh]

I found this site helpful for all things ebike: http://www.electricbike.com/watt-hours/

[jnva]

Ebikes.ca also has a lot of good info – they have a motor simulator that will tell you the range based on battery and controller.

Also, I’ve given up on having any shop build or modify anything on my ebike. I know it’s probably not what you want to hear dasgeh (I just read the box bike thread) but I do repairs and maintenance myself. I spent a lot of time trying to find a shop to simply build a wheel with a motor, and ended up doing it myself. Ebikes.ca has a spoke calculator and will cut custom size spokes.

[rcannon100]

Man I am seeing ebikes on the trail every day now…. and not just our resident Cherrydale Cheater. I loathe them so much…. Is loathe the right word??? I think the right word is jealous. Envious??? Hum, how many of the deadly sins can I commit each time an ebike goes bike?

Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor’s Bike 😡

[GuyContinental]

I’m pretty sure that the free-rider analysis of the car/bike relationship has been posted before:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

Reading this thread I have to think that something similar is going on with ebikes vs bikes- irrational and visceral reaction to the unencumbered use of a shared resource.

Discuss.

[mstone]

@GuyContinental 49460 wrote:

Reading this thread I have to think that something similar is going on with ebikes vs bikes- irrational and visceral reaction to the unencumbered use of a shared resource.

Ignoring the pejorative characterization, I think there’s a very rational fear of idiots going too fast on the trails, making them more dangerous for everyone. There are too many of those already, but their numbers are limited by the physical demands. There is a potential for technology to make every idiot SUV driver on the road into an idiot electric motorcycle driver on the trails. The counterarguments seem to be that 1) it’s impossible because the technology doesn’t permit that and 2) the law doesn’t permit that. My response is that technology improves–and a ton of money is being invested into fundamental research for improved batteries–and that those improvements will eventually eliminate the real limitation that currently exists, and that it is extremely unlikely that law enforcement will have the capability/resources/desire to enforce legal distinctions between different kinds of electric motorcycles. It seems inevitable to me that in the long term if you allow motorized vehicles on a long MUP you will eventually have serious issues with inappropriate speeds. I suppose you could instead attempt to address that with speed limits & enforcement, but that hasn’t worked out very well on the roads.

I’d also argue that the need to use the trails is much less with an electric motorcycle–just take the lane instead.

[GuyContinental]

@mstone 49463 wrote:

Ignoring the pejorative characterization

Wow. Chill. The quoted statement was a rehash of the typical free-rider reaction to anything– i.e. that it is irrational and visceral.

There is posolutely an element of the free-rider problem here and you looking for expanded scope of the current problem based on future tech developments is exactly the sort of reaction that drivers have over bike infrastruture development. Guess what, regulations develop in response to development, rarely the other way around. Right now, given current tech ebikes are not a problem if/when they become a problem hopefully there will be a community-informed regulatory process that results in something like “no ebike over x hp is allowed on MUTs”.

For the record, I really don’t have any skin in this game and I’m done here.

[jabberwocky]

@mstone 49463 wrote:

It seems inevitable to me that in the long term if you allow motorized vehicles on a long MUP you will eventually have serious issues with inappropriate speeds. I suppose you could instead attempt to address that with speed limits & enforcement, but that hasn’t worked out very well on the roads.

I’d also argue that the need to use the trails is much less with an electric motorcycle–just take the lane instead.

Basically my thoughts. I personally think e-bikes are pretty awesome, but I’m a bit wary of altering the rules to allow them on MUPs. Today they aren’t particularly fast and are a bit of a niche item, but its fairly inevitable that they’ll get faster and cheaper. Rules about max speed and motor power would be really hard to enforce.

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