e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[americancyclo]

A while back, I rode for a few miles of my commute with a woman on an ebike. it definitely gave her an advantage on the uphills, but she wasn’t as fast one the downhills because of the motor and gearing. In my mind, most folks on ebikes are using the extra power to get up to par with other commuters. Maybe they are nursing an injury, maybe they can’t physically make the entire length of their trip under their own power. I don’t really see people who are already in good shape getting an ebike just to see how fast they can go on the MUPs. I know a fair amount of commuters who can get up over 30mph on their daily commute, so I don’t really buy the speed argument as an issue. Inexperience I believe, but that cuts across all trail users.

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 19115 wrote:

I joined this forum and started posting because I thought I could bring some sense to all of the posts I read about how dangerous ebikes are, and how they are going to take over the trails and ruin it for everyone. The common thing I am hearing is that on an ebike you don’t have to work hard to go fast. But that’s exactly the point and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. As a mode of transportation to get to work, it works great for me. I am certainly not trying to take over the mup and cause problems.

As far as experience and safe handling of an ebike going 20mph, this can be mastered in a week or so. It’s not that difficult.

Just to be clear, I’m not arguing that e-bikes are somehow inherently dangerous. I’m just unconvinced that any laws prohibiting them from MUPs need to be changed. There is a ceiling to how fast a human-powered road bike can go. Average speeds for pro cyclists haven’t changed much in the last 60 years. The speed ceiling for an e-bike is limited purely by the tech, which is constantly improving. If e-bikes were locked into todays commercial tech, I’d have no issues changing the law. But that isn’t the case. At some point (and I think we’ll reach that point in the near future), e-bikes being speed limited to 20mph is going to be purely voluntary.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 19116 wrote:

Except, 20 is generally too fast for the close-in MUPs when other users are out and about–and the fact that anyone can jump on and do it in less than a week is exactly the problem…

There are lots of things that anyone can jump on a bike and do in less than a week that are very dangerous on trails. We don’t ban any other entire class of bikes/riders from the trails just because they could possibly be dangerous. We have rules that the riders are required to follow, and riders are expected to be able to control their equipment sufficiently to follow those rules. (I can just imagine the damage I’d do on the trail if I tried to ride one of the portable elliptical machines for the first time on the W&OD)

As far as enforcement, let’s be realistic – this isn’t about enforcement. The rule currently isn’t enforced at all. The debate is a little be academic, but it goes to the whole “if you make things that lots of cyclists do, and logically should be allowed to do, illegal, then cyclists will generally have less respect for the law”. If the police wanted to enforce this, they could issue tickets if they suspect a motored-bike isn’t an ebike, and let the cyclist submit documentation showing that it meets the definition (mine came with that, and it’s easy to get replacements online). Most importantly, most retail motored bikes are ebikes. So police should really focus suspension on self-built motored bikes.

The reason I’m pushing this is because part of my commute requires me to hop on an MUP in Arlington (the trail between 110 and the cemetery — all the “on road” options involve highways – 66W, 50, 110, 27 — unless I more than double the length of my commute). I prefer not to break the law. So should I be required to give up bike commuting because I’m medically unable to power the bike myself at the moment? There are others situations where a cyclist legally would be allowed to be on the road, but it would be much safer for the ebiker to be on the MUP. You may imagine all ebikes speeding away at 20MPH (which isn’t the case), but even 20MPH is too slow to safely be on road on, eg the Fairfax County Parkway.

The better question is: given that ebikes can be and generally are ridden in a safe manner, and that ebikes can expand the population of cyclists, why should we ban ebikes from trails?

[dasgeh]

@jabberwocky 19119 wrote:

Just to be clear, I’m not arguing that e-bikes are somehow inherently dangerous. I’m just unconvinced that any laws prohibiting them from MUPs need to be changed. There is a ceiling to how fast a human-powered road bike can go. Average speeds for pro cyclists haven’t changed much in the last 60 years. The speed ceiling for an e-bike is limited purely by the tech, which is constantly improving. If e-bikes were locked into todays commercial tech, I’d have no issues changing the law. But that isn’t the case. At some point (and I think we’ll reach that point in the near future), e-bikes being speed limited to 20mph is going to be purely voluntary.

What I’m advocating for, and I believe what others are advocating for, is allowing SPEED LIMITED ebikes on the trails. I think using the federal definition is the easiest solution. Even if the tech gets better, and the law doesn’t change (as you argue will happen). BTW, ebikes aren’t that new, and the tech hasn’t really gotten better. Prices may have come down somewhat, but they’re still prohibitively expensive for most. The only people I know with ebikes are like me — committed cyclists who started on regular bikes, but because of temporary or permanent conditions, physically can’t do what they want on a regular bike at the moment. As I asked before, why ban those people from MUPs?

[jnva]

@dasgeh 19121 wrote:

The only people I know with ebikes are like me — committed cyclists who started on regular bikes…

Exactly my situation. I don’t have a shower at work and even if there were one, I don’t want to take a shower at work. I want to get to work, do my job and then go home. I don’t want to change either- I bike in my work clothes. Ebike allows me to do this. And I’m not out of shape or have any medical reason to not ride non ebike. I run marathons and bike races, just getting to work on the ebike is so easy and fun I find it amazing more people don’t do it, and even more amazed it’s in some way illegal to do so on local trails. Things need to change….

[KLizotte]

@dasgeh 19121 wrote:

The only people I know with ebikes are like me — committed cyclists who started on regular bikes, but because of temporary or permanent conditions, physically can’t do what they want on a regular bike at the moment. As I asked before, why ban those people from MUPs?

From what I’m reading I don’t think most people are advocating banning you or the situation you describe; rather, people are concerned that the genie is out of the bottle and that e-bikes will suddenly become a real menace because they have suddenly become fast, light and cheap. Kinda like the scourage that cell phones have become with everyone yabbering away on them wherever they feel like it.

I’m perfectly fine with the current crop of e-bikes because they are heavy and reasonably slow; I have even tried one (it was fun though I found it disturbingly quick to accelerate). I just fear that manufacturers will start producing beasts (like SUVs) because they can make a buck.

[jnva]

@KLizotte 19123 wrote:

From what I’m reading I don’t think most people are advocating banning you or the situation you describe; rather, people are concerned that the genie is out of the bottle and that e-bikes will suddenly become a real menace because they have suddenly become fast, light and cheap. Kinda like the scourage that cell phones have become with everyone yabbering away on them wherever they feel like it.

I’m perfectly fine with the current crop of e-bikes because they are heavy and reasonably slow; I have even tried one (it was fun though I found it disturbingly quick to accelerate). I just fear that manufacturers will start producing beasts (like SUVs) because they can make a buck.

I completely understand your fear but also you should know it’s a situation that has not, and in my opinion will not happen. Manufacturers are already producing beasts that can go super fast – they are called motorcycles! Zero makes one, and I don’t recall the others off the top of my head. Low speed electric is for commuters like me who want a car replacement without the difficulty owning a motorcycle or riding a bike. Anyway, it fits my needs perfectly and I don’t see any need to be afraid of them.

[Nuke]

I didn’t know what the objection to e-bikes until yesterday when I was on a MUP in the Iwo Jima park. I was slowing going up a hill on a path that is not that wide. With no warning, an e-bike passes me going rather fast. Scare the cr@p out of me since I would not expect to passed at that speed going up a hill. Sure, a warning would have helped but if I heard a bell, I still woulded be expecting a bike at that speed. Now maybe a horn would be better but then that’s when e-bikes really are more like mopeds.

What pisses me off the most about was that there was no good reason to be on the trail. The roads around there would have gotten the guy to the same place.

[jnva]

@Nuke 19180 wrote:

I didn’t know what the objection to e-bikes until yesterday when I was on a MUP in the Iwo Jima park. I was slowing going up a hill on a path that is not that wide. With no warning, an e-bike passes me going rather fast. Scare the cr@p out of me since I would not expect to passed at that speed going up a hill. Sure, a warning would have helped but if I heard a bell, I still woulded be expecting a bike at that speed. Now maybe a horn would be better but then that’s when e-bikes really are more like mopeds.

What pisses me off the most about was that there was no good reason to be on the trail. The roads around there would have gotten the guy to the same place.

It’s not the ebike you should be pissed off about, it’s the person riding it. I can’t tell you how many times that’s happened to me by roadies passing me on the trails. If your going to go fast, I agree that the mup is not the place to do it.

[dasgeh]

@KLizotte 19123 wrote:

From what I’m reading I don’t think most people are advocating banning you or the situation you describe.

But we’re already banned.

@KLizotte 19123 wrote:

I just fear that manufacturers will start producing beasts (like SUVs) because they can make a buck.

The federal law has been around for more than a decade, and this hasn’t happened. Why would you think that Arlington allowing ebikes on its MUPs would lead to this? Moreover, the law limits the speed of the assist, so there’s necessarily a cap on that aspect.

@Nuke 19180 wrote:

With no warning, an e-bike passes me going rather fast. Scare the cr@p out of me since I would not expect to passed at that speed going up a hill. What pisses me off the most about was that there was no good reason to be on the trail. The roads around there would have gotten the guy to the same place.

I’m pretty sure my husband on a road bike could have beaten the ebike up the hill (there’s only one hill that meets your definition there, and I know it well — I’ve seen plenty of racers carry plenty of speed up steeper hills). There’s a rider who chose to be on a path when I road would have been better and probably faster (** though the construction crews in that area have forced me on an ebike onto the paths, so there’s the possibility that the guy didn’t have a choice**), and didn’t pass you in a safe manner. That’s on the rider, not the bike.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 19211 wrote:

The federal law has been around for more than a decade, and this hasn’t happened. Why would you think that Arlington allowing ebikes on its MUPs would lead to this? Moreover, the law limits the speed of the assist, so there’s necessarily a cap on that aspect.

The limiting factor, IMO, isn’t law–it’s battery technology. Batteries have been improving very slowly, but will almost certainly continue to improve and make ever faster bikes practical.

[jnva]

@mstone 19244 wrote:

The limiting factor, IMO, isn’t law–it’s battery technology. Batteries have been improving very slowly, but will almost certainly continue to improve and make ever faster bikes practical.

Not exactly. Most ebikes use dc brushless motors that require a controller to provide voltage at a certain rate to the motor (very basic description of how it actually works). Manufacturers are not allowed to sell ebikes regardless of the battery voltage that can propell a bike more than 20mph. Modding the controller is not as easy as some people on this forum think, by the way.

[mstone]

@jnva 19247 wrote:

Not exactly. Most ebikes use dc brushless motors that require a controller to provide voltage at a certain rate to the motor (very basic description of how it actually works). Manufacturers are not allowed to sell ebikes regardless of the battery voltage that can propell a bike more than 20mph. Modding the controller is not as easy as some people on this forum think, by the way.

And the incentive to do so is low due to the limitations of battery technology. That’s not a voltage issue, it’s a question of how much capacity is practical to haul around on a bike.

[jnva]

@mstone 19250 wrote:

And the incentive to do so is low due to the limitations of battery technology. That’s not a voltage issue, it’s a question of how much capacity is practical to haul around on a bike.

Exactly. Voltage=top speed while capacity (watt-hours) = distance. High voltage not so easy to add, so high speed ebikes not really practical. Neither is adding capacity because of the weight of current battery technology.

[brendan]

@jnva 19252 wrote:

Exactly. Voltage=top speed while capacity (watt-hours) = distance. High voltage not so easy to add, so high speed ebikes not really practical. Neither is adding capacity because of the weight of current battery technology.

Note also, just like cyclist wattage output, the wattage required for a particular speed is approximately proportional to the *square* of the velocity (in the atmosphere). Slower is better if you want to maximize your distance.

Brendan

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