e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 1673442 wrote:

Even if police can enforce nothing, changing the law still matters, because of the effect on civil suits and insurance.

Some of us care a lot about what actually happens on the trails. Even if someone might be able to win a civil suit, the real effect will be that fast moving electric motorcycles will simply cause the trail to be abandoned by slower users. It just like the roads: it’s not technically legal for a car to run up on the sidewalk, and if you do get killed by a driver doing that your heirs might get money, but in reality people don’t care–they just give up on walking by high speed streets.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 167398 wrote:

Some of us care a lot about what actually happens on the trails. Even if someone might be able to win a civil suit, the real effect will be that fast moving electric motorcycles will simply cause the trail to be abandoned by slower users. It just like the roads: it’s not technically legal for a car to run up on the sidewalk, and if you do get killed by a driver doing that your heirs might get money, but in reality people don’t care–they just give up on walking by high speed streets.

I guess I am assuming that the lawsuit thing just might be a deterrent for some people? (I think of it when deciding whether or not to Delaware a stop sign). I realize it probably won’t be for most people, but then actual police enforcement of any particular trail rule (almost certain to be very spotty) is probably not going to be any more effective.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 167366 wrote:

I will give you that the classification argument is much more reasonable, but I just don’t think having the ability to go 28mph is a deal killer. Most adults on most bikes can pick up that speed with modest pedaling on the steep Custis downhills. And they should control their speeds, just as someone on a Class 3 ebike should control their speed.[/quote]
Well, I’m looking for something that works in the real world, not “people should”. People shouldn’t speed on roads in cars either, but they do.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 167401 wrote:

I guess I am assuming that the lawsuit thing just might be a deterrent for some people? (I think of it when deciding whether or not to Delaware a stop sign). I realize it probably won’t be for most people, but then actual police enforcement of any particular trail rule (almost certain to be very spotty) is probably not going to be any more effective.

How often do people not speed in their cars because they don’t want to be liable for hitting someone while breaking the law?

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 167403 wrote:

How often do people not speed in their cars because they don’t want to be liable for hitting someone while breaking the law?

1 How often to people refrain from going 5MPH over the speed limit
2. How many jurisdictions (like DC) rely on speed cameras to ticket people going over 10 MPH over the limit?
3. How many jurisdictions, like the ones in NoVa where speed cams are not allowed, have entire squads of police dedicated to traffic enforcement on the streets, at considerable cost, even with revenue from quite significant fines.

How high a fine do you envision for riding an ebike on a MUT? How many police do you envision out there enforcing it? Do you envision some form of automated enforcement?

I suspect that for violations by people on bikes (other than running stop signs in Old Town Alexandria and on Van Buren in Falls Church) civil liability will not be a much smaller deterrent than LE activity is.

[huskerdont]

Begs the question of what *would* work in the real world though. Leaving aside the issue of whether it’s fair to all users, a complete ban might potentially be slightly easier to enforce, but it’s still not going to be enforced. I have yet to see a suggested action that would keep any class of eBike off the trails (the same goes for speeding). So legally prohibiting those classes of eBike that can do the most harm makes the most sense to me: since we’re not realistically going to be able to stop them anyway, then the liability issue becomes much more important.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 167404 wrote:

1 How often to people refrain from going 5MPH over the speed limit
2. How many jurisdictions (like DC) rely on speed cameras to ticket people going over 10 MPH over the limit?
3. How many jurisdictions, like the ones in NoVa where speed cams are not allowed, have entire squads of police dedicated to traffic enforcement on the streets, at considerable cost, even with revenue from quite significant fines.

How high a fine do you envision for riding an ebike on a MUT? How many police do you envision out there enforcing it? Do you envision some form of automated enforcement?

I suspect that for violations by people on bikes (other than running stop signs in Old Town Alexandria and on Van Buren in Falls Church) civil liability will not be a much smaller deterrent than LE activity is.

I’m pretty sure I’ve said this earlier in this same thread, but I have no expectation that there would be widespread enforcement of an ebike ban. (It’s part of why I don’t think legalizing them is particularly important.) I do think it’s plausible that when someone is egregious enough that people start complaining, the police might try to get that one guy, and having an ebike ban makes it easier to deal with that problem than hoping he does something egregious while the police are actually watching. That’s basically the status quo: people aren’t supposed to ebike but nobody particularly cares about some bicycle station wagon tootling along. That sucks, is open to unfair selective enforcement, and is a much more realistic regime than anything else that’s been proposed.

[mstone]

@huskerdont 167405 wrote:

Begs the question of what *would* work in the real world though.

That’s easy: mode separation on the trails. People advocating for ebikes as a panacea for transportation issues should stop putting the cart before the horse. The infrastructure we have doesn’t support it, but there’s no real question about what the infrastructure that would support it looks like.

[huskerdont]

@mstone 167407 wrote:

That’s easy: mode separation on the trails. People advocating for ebikes as a panacea for transportation issues should stop putting the cart before the horse. The infrastructure we have doesn’t support it, but there’s no real question about what the infrastructure that would support it looks like.

Only arguments against that are (1) can’t very easily do it on some trails like the Custis and (2) every place I’ve seen mode separation, people don’t remain in their allotted area–even in Germany, although it was better than I thought it would be. I have never been to the Netherlands; maybe it works there.

I would love to be wrong about either or both of those though.

[zsionakides]

@huskerdont 167405 wrote:

Begs the question of what *would* work in the real world though. Leaving aside the issue of whether it’s fair to all users, a complete ban might potentially be slightly easier to enforce, but it’s still not going to be enforced. I have yet to see a suggested action that would keep any class of eBike off the trails (the same goes for speeding). So legally prohibiting those classes of eBike that can do the most harm makes the most sense to me: since we’re not realistically going to be able to stop them anyway, then the liability issue becomes much more important.

The liability issue would probably be the best deterrent. As ebikes are pretty expensive, those who can afford them have the most to lose. Also legal prohibitions on them, would allow for impoundment to deter misuse on trails.

[Dewey]

@zsionakides 167413 wrote:

legal prohibitions on them, would allow for impoundment to deter misuse on trails.

This is being tried on the streets of New York City where the NYPD periodically impound ebikes, unsure if they make a distinction with legal Class 1 pedal assist ebikes but the photos I’ve seen on the NYPD’s twitter feed suggest most that are crushed are Chinese imports which are more powerful than Class 3 speed pedelecs, throttle operated, and like all ebikes they don’t have VIN numbers because they are not built to NHTSA safety standards, so they definitely fall outside the current New York state ebike definition and cannot be registered as street legal mopeds at the New York DMV. Recently the Mayor declared he would be targeting the restaurants and delivery riders but the businesses selling them don’t appear to be being targeted, in the same way Trek can somehow sell Class 3 speed pedelec ebikes in Minnesota and Florida where they’re illegal.

A Brooklyn bike shop owner who sells NY legal Class 1 pedelec ebikes is advocating Albany take a unique approach to legalising Class 1 pedelec ebikes for use on trails rather than simply adopting the ‘People for Bikes’ ebike industry-written model legislation. He describes he has no problem with the NYPD enforcement actions and supports appropriate targeted enforcement. Quote from pedelec retailer Chris Nolte “We could have passed a bill last year, but the bike industry wasn’t willing to support a bill that didn’t align with their model legislation. This year we plan to work outside of the traditional channels, it’s been too many years of people outside of NY trying to make decisions on what’s best for NY.”

I have tried writing to the CPSC but they aren’t interested or funded to tackle enforcement on the supply end, and when I followed up by writing to a state AG’s office about an importer of an illegal electric moped being marketed as a Class 3 speed pedelec I received a polite letter noting my concern but promising no action. I support WABA’s position accepting pedal assist while promoting the local cycling community’s concerns and hope they will engage with local ebike retailers and riders so together we can steer and amend legislation and promote responsible ebike cycling and nuanced LE action in DC, MD & VA otherwise outside forces will continue to set the agenda.

[mstone]

@Dewey 167564 wrote:

This is being tried on the streets of New York City where the NYPD periodically impound ebikes, unsure if they make a distinction with legal Class 1 pedal assist ebikes but the photos I’ve seen on the NYPD’s twitter feed suggest most that are crushed are Chinese imports which are more powerful than Class 3 speed pedelecs, throttle operated, and like all ebikes they don’t have VIN numbers because they are not built to NHTSA safety standards, so they definitely fall outside the current New York state ebike definition and cannot be registered as street legal mopeds at the New York DMV. Recently the Mayor declared he would be targeting the restaurants that buy fleets of these electric motorcycles for their delivery riders, but the businesses selling them don’t appear to be being targeted, in the same way Trek can somehow sell Class 3 speed pedelec ebikes in Minnesota where they’re illegal.

Hmm. Some of us said the only real limiting factor on speed was battery technology–which is only going to improve. We were assured that wasn’t true because laws, and something about classes. I continue to believe that the ebike class system will have no practical effect on what kind of ebikes show up on trails because it’s too jargony and opaque for the real world. (Though I’m sure it doesn’t seem like that for people immersed in the ebike community.)

[Dewey]

@mstone 167574 wrote:

I continue to believe that the ebike class system will have no practical effect on what kind of ebikes show up on trails

I agree a classification system on its own is toothless and open to abuse without an easy way for LE to verify an ebike is appropriately power/speed limited, as looks can be deceiving and police officers aren’t ebike technicians it might be something like the class registration decal provided for under the People for Bikes model legislation, however that model as currently worded is flawed because it may be interpreted as restricting ebike class registration to complete ebikes when there also needs to be some way for DIY kit motor owners to obtain such verification, preferably from a local bike shop that sells and services legal ebikes. Making the registration decals secure/chipped and for the registration to be renewable and logged in a DMV database should help in the event of a crackdown/enforcement action.

[mstone]

@Dewey 167581 wrote:

I agree a classification system on its own is toothless and open to abuse without an easy way for LE to verify an ebike is appropriately power/speed limited, as looks can be deceiving and police officers aren’t ebike technicians it might be something like the class registration decal provided for under the People for Bikes model legislation, however that model as currently worded is flawed because it may be interpreted as restricting ebike class registration to complete ebikes when there also needs to be some way for DIY kit motor owners to obtain such verification, preferably from a local bike shop that sells and services ebikes – the DMV is likely uninterested because legal ebikes are not motor vehicles and they won’t have ebike technicians on staff. Making the registration decals secure/chipped and for the registration to be renewable and logged in a DMV database should help in the event of a crackdown/enforcement action.

Anything that requires an inspection/certification scheme will fall apart if the premise of ebikes is that they are cheap. Hiding the cost of such a program in the expenses of a $20k+ car is a lot easier than hiding the cost in a $1k bike. (And the expectation AIUI is that the cost will be much less than $1k once the novelty wears off.) I’d expect a testing/registration scheme to cost hundreds per year, looking at how much it costs for cars and taking into account the (lack of) economies of scale. If it’s just a one-time sticker I don’t understand why dodgy chinese ebikes wouldn’t come with the sticker already attached.

[Dewey]

@mstone 167583 wrote:

I’d expect a testing/registration scheme to cost hundreds per year, looking at how much it costs for cars and taking into account the (lack of) economies of scale.

Not trying to play down your concerns but one of the DC ebike shops lists a service charge of just $25 to check/change motor controller settings. Adding a field to a DMV database and the ability to check it on a police computer requires a little programming. Your last point is why I was interested in what the CPSC and state AG’s had to say about enforcement on the supply end, I feel that must surely be as important.

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