e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[Harry Meatmotor]

@hozn 167208 wrote:

Hey, I’ve got another one for you …

But I really don’t ride that fast. I certainly could never maintain 22.5mph average on my commute.

I’ve argued this point before, but this BB seems to vastly overestimate speed. I went back and looked at the last (miserable) TT I did, and I averaged 23.6mph over 12 miles, rolling terrain. Just because one can hit 30mph on a downhill doesn’t make it safe for everyone to ride bikes at a 25mph (or even 20mph!) average speed around here.

[lordofthemark]

One more time, the California classification breaks at 20 and 28MPH, not 15 OR 25. While we don’t have to follow California, the industry seems to support that, and I am skeptical a different scheme will fly (but if people actually familiar with the issue in other states, or in Richmond, have something to say, I will listen). Between the three choices that seems to leave – banning all ebikes, allowing only class 1 and 2 as defined in Ca (ergo upto 20MPH) or allowing all three classes (ergo up to 28MPH) I lean strongly towars allowing class 1 and 2. Though I still think we have higher priorities in Alexandria than pushing for the City to request that change from Richmond. I even think we have higher priorities in Richmond, like allowing automated speed enforcement, and clarifying City authority to create speed limits below 25MPH on residential streets.

[hozn]

@dasgeh 167221 wrote:

Fair enough. I wasn’t talking about the street, I was talking about the trail. My point is that if you only let ebikes capped at 15mph on the trails, and you expect lots of new people to ride ebikes, then, given the reality of our region (i.e. that you have to ride on trails to get into DC), you’d expect people to buy these capped ebikes. But if they’re ebikes are capped, then they’re more likely to stay on the trails, making our trails more crowded. That may be fine for your 12yo, but I want the trails to be safe for my 7yo, so I’d like a world where the trails aren’t too full. Seems like you can achieve both with a speed limit on the trails, then routes that are more attractive for those who ride fast (and yes, ebikes) to get that volume voluntarily off the trail.

I guess I didn’t understand. But this line of argument is lost on me. We want to make sure that all e-bikes are allowed on the trails, but then we want them to voluntarily get off the trail because it could otherwise become too crowded?

Re: trails getting crowded, I find myself agreeing with Steve O on this:

Quote:

But crowding our trails is actually a way to get the attention of decision makers and move along this path.

So, I suppose I’m all for crowding the trails with reasonably-paced traffic. I think when you have e-bikes weaving between people on the Custis at 25+mph you have a problem. So, if you anticipate that e-bike volume is going to grow enough to cause our MUPs to become unsafe for 7-year-olds, why on earth would we want to encourage – or even allow – the use of class-3 motors on these trails? I don’t follow this.

[hozn]

In an anecdotal tangent, I met a former coworker of mine today who rides on a Specialized Turbo (in colder weather, at least?). He kinda startled me by quietly gliding up next to me on a downhill, but he did very graciously let me draft him from Hunter Mill to his turn off in Vienna. Once we stopped chatting we basically held a steady 25mph the whole way which was apparently pretty casual for him. (Don’t worry, there wasn’t any traffic to speak of and I used my bell to warn the few walkers we did pass.)

Apparently I got a few top 10s. Wow, I’m 7/11,680 from Hunter Mill to Ayr Hill! … Aaaand now I see that my friend who rides the Turbo has the KOM. I think that pretty much closes the book on the question of whether there are “plenty of roadies” that can ride just as fast as e-bikes.

I’ll go do the right thing and remove myself from those leaderboards now.

[Judd]

@Harry Meatmotor 167229 wrote:

I’ve argued this point before, but this BB seems to vastly overestimate speed. I went back and looked at the last (miserable) TT I did, and I averaged 23.6mph over 12 miles, rolling terrain. Just because one can hit 30mph on a downhill doesn’t make it safe for everyone to ride bikes at a 25mph (or even 20mph!) average speed around here.

Out of curiosity, I looked at some average speeds for 2017. These are all based on total miles in 2017 divided by total hours ridden in 2017.
Harry is at 17.9 which is pretty darn good.
Hozn (who I also consider to be fast) is at 14.9. (I imagine this is influenced by kidical rides)
Subby (Who I also think of as a fast rider) is at 14.9
My average speed in 2017 is 13.48. (Interestingly enough, this is a decrease from 13.8 in 2016 and 14.0 in 2015 so maybe I count as elderly and being in need of an e-bike to keep up with my more youthful speeds)

[huskerdont]

Average speeds are affected by so much that I’d drive myself crazy looking at them.

Anecdotal, but yesterday approaching the airport on the MVT, an eBike was approaching me from the other direction, cutting across the fields. He was going ridiculously fast and coming right toward me, and I actually braked and we did the zig-zag thing a bit. When he passed, I noted that he had full-on face mask (60 degrees out). He looked like a motorcycle rider who was pedaling a little bit, and I wondered if it were Halloween because it was just a bit weird and creepy.

Anyway, I support eBikes on the trails in general, but nothing that can go that fast with no effort. One or two people riding Class 3s may be okay, but if the trails become full of them, regular cyclists, runners, people with children, and dog walkers will all have to go elsewhere; trails like the Custis simply weren’t built for that sort of use.

[hozn]

@Judd 167248 wrote:

Out of curiosity, I looked at some average speeds for 2017. These are all based on total miles in 2017 divided by total hours ridden in 2017.
Harry is at 17.9 which is pretty darn good.
Hozn (who I also consider to be fast) is at 14.9. (I imagine this is influenced by kidical rides)
Subby (Who I also think of as a fast rider) is at 14.9
My average speed in 2017 is 13.48. (Interestingly enough, this is a decrease from 13.8 in 2016 and 14.0 in 2015 so maybe I count as elderly and being in need of an e-bike to keep up with my more youthful speeds)

Yes, HarryMM is definitely a faster rider than I am. I know this every time I see him at Hains Point Hammerfest. He can sit out front pulling at the 25+mph for at least half a lap before someone guilts him into rotating; I’m lucky to make it a few hundred yards at that pace.

Subby is also a faster rider than I am. (We need to add the term “subby’d” to the dictionary, since that’s what happens to a ride when he shows up and blows off the front.)

But, yeah, average speeds are also highly dependent on route. I ride slower pulling the trailer, which is every workday, but that isn’t a big portion of my commute. I also take some days (like today) deliberately easy/slowly since I don’t usually have rest days during the week.

[EasyRider]

I can’t remember if I’ve mentioned this before, but I’d be interested to read about the decision to keep motorized vehicles off MUPs at the time of their construction. I’ve often mentioned that the Puch mopeds of my suburban youth are about as capable as a class 2 e-bike, maybe class 3 with some modification. What made planners ban them from trails? Was it just the gas engines? The speed? The noise?

I don’t favor digging up such reasons for reapplication to a new situation 30+ years later. They were of their time and place. But the history — old committee minutes, planning docs, whatever — would be interesting to read.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@huskerdont 167249 wrote:

He IS a motorcycle rider who was pedaling a little bit…

FTFY.

(if it was around 4:15-4:25pm, it’s the same dude I see every day…) He wears actual moto leathers. And he really doesn’t like getting held up behind ped traffic on the 14th St. ped bridge.

[Judd]

@hozn 167251 wrote:

I also take some days (like today) deliberately easy/slowly since I don’t usually have rest days during the week.

Hmmm. I should maybe try this. I take some days undeliberately slow because I’m exhausted, but I’m thinking the steady decline in my average speed is from not taking any days off.

[dasgeh]

@Harry Meatmotor 167214 wrote:

A 25mph (contextual) speed limit on any MUP in this area would only affect Class-3 e-bikers. MAMILs would remain unharmed. Snotty racers ride on the roads anyhow.

Go for it! Bring on the enforcement!

Except for all the downhills. There are plenty of people on non-ebikes that can make it higher than 25mph on the downhills on the Custis. Since a speed limit would be the max speed, not the average speed for the trip, it would affect many people. Not saying it’s a bad thing. Nor I’m I saying 25mph is ok for a trail — it’s probably too high.

@mstone 167224 wrote:

You have, you just haven’t acknowledged it or really responded to it. Again: the number of people who can ride at 25MPH on the trails is significantly lower than the potential number of people who could ebike at 25MPH on the trails. The current trails can’t handle that many people riding 25MPH. Also, those who do so for recreational reasons tend to specifically avoid the trails for high-speed riding. Yes, there are people who currently ride too fast on the trails, and they are conspicuous exactly because they are rare. Please, explain how the trails function for pedestrians or slow riders/children when (in some bright future for the ebike manufacturers) the majority of cyclists have vehicles that are limited by battery power rather than muscle power.

I don’t think it’s a reasonable argument, because it basically says “we’re going to control volume by restricting access by physical ability.” I don’t think that’s fair when you’re talking transportation.

And as far as how trails function — with infra and rules that are designed to control speeds and make things safe for everyone. Not by banning folks based on ability – or some folks based on ability (those on ebikes), but not others that have that same ability (those on regular bikes who can go just as fast).

@hozn 167244 wrote:

I guess I didn’t understand. But this line of argument is lost on me. We want to make sure that all e-bikes are allowed on the trails, but then we want them to voluntarily get off the trail because it could otherwise become too crowded?
[…]
So, I suppose I’m all for crowding the trails with reasonably-paced traffic. I think when you have e-bikes weaving between people on the Custis at 25+mph you have a problem. So, if you anticipate that e-bike volume is going to grow enough to cause our MUPs to become unsafe for 7-year-olds, why on earth would we want to encourage – or even allow – the use of class-3 motors on these trails? I don’t follow this.

I think anyone weaving between people on the Custis at ANY unsafe speed (which is often much less than 25mph) is a problem. Which is why we need to address the behavior — build parallel safe infra that encourages those who want to go fast to go somewhere else. But we have to realize that there are routes that necessarily involve trails (e.g. the bridges), so ebikes should be allowed on those. It seems way too complicated for everyone to try to distinguish between those trails that are necessary and those that are optional. Besides, as we’ve heard again and again, speeding on the Custis by those without ebikes is a problem already, so this policy would kill two birds with one stone: encourage more folks to bike by allowing ebikes into the mix, but make the trails safer by introducing the necessary changes to slow EVERYONE on trails down to safe speeds.

[huskerdont]

@Harry Meatmotor 167264 wrote:

FTFY.

(if it was around 4:15-4:25pm, it’s the same dude I see every day…) He wears actual moto leathers. And he really doesn’t like getting held up behind ped traffic on the 14th St. ped bridge.

Strava tells to me it was just before 3:30. Could be the same guy. He was coming out from under the trees just south of the I-395 bridge, and it happened so quickly I really only noticed the speed, direction, lack of any serious pedaling, and creepiness.

[EasyRider]

@dasgeh 167270 wrote:

Which is why we need to address the behavior — build parallel safe infra that encourages those who want to go fast to go somewhere else.

I get the point, but I don’t recognize a need to build parallel safe infrastructure for people who simply want to go fast. Those who want to go faster on an e-bike — or any bike — can use the parallel infrastructure we already have, the roads. The roads would be better for it.

Sure, a road isn’t as safe as the path. That’s not news to motorcycles and scooters.
What happens when those vehicles are mostly electric, and there’s no aesthetic excuse (dirty noisy combustion engines) with which to exclude them from this proposed high speed bike path, the way mopeds are excluded from the current MUPs?
Should they observe a speed limit or is say, 40 mph cool?

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 167270 wrote:

I don’t think it’s a reasonable argument, because it basically says “we’re going to control volume by restricting access by physical ability.” I don’t think that’s fair when you’re talking transportation.

Just as a reminder, the possible policies under discussion are
A. Ban all ebikes
B. Ban all ebikes able to go over 15MPH (the classification system used in the EU, but I don’t know their trail rules)
C. Ban all ebikes able to go over 20MPH (the California law, banning Class 3, but allowing Class 1 and 2)
D. Ban all ebikes able to go over 25MPH (allowing Class 3, but with a definition of Class 3 not in the California law, that you have been using, not sure your source)
E. Ban all ebikes able to go over 28MPH (allowing Class 3 as defined in the California law)

Of these, only A would actually prevent people from riding bikes on the trails based on their level of physical ability (Note even that would not prevent people using the MULTIUSE trails by means other than a bicycle) None of the others would. Note also, that while B has been proposed by people on this forum, it is not what the semi-consensus of people I am discussing policy with wants.

I am not sure how implementing C, instead of D, actually is limiting access to the trails for the physically less able. It does prevent people who are less able from going over 20MPH. I guess you can call that unfair. As someone who cannot do 20MPH an hour on flats myself, I would say I do not feel my ability to use the trails is constrained by that – and in fact my own enjoyment of the trails would be lessened by others in the same physical condition as myself choosing to ride at 25MPH on trails.

I can see some might complain of an inablity to get their Class 3 ebike into the District of Columbia. I would point out three things. 1. As a bike advocate in Virginia, whatever Richmond does, that access depends on the govt of the District of Columbia 2. one particular bridge could be selected to allow Class 3 ebikes without allowing them elsewhere, until such time as the Long Bridge (likely to have a much wider sidepath) is replaced. 3. People can get their class 3 ebikes from Va to DC either on metro (at proper hours) or on metrobuses (several go from Va to DC) or they can even walk them across. Not ideal, but we have all had to put up with non ideal things, and it is their choice to purchase Class 3 instead of Class 1 ebikes.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@dasgeh 167270 wrote:

…it would affect many people… Nor I’m I saying 25mph is ok for a trail — it’s probably too high.

OK, is 20mph good? Let’s do it.

Next step is enforcement. Who is paying for it? There are surely going to be a lot of tickets issued (based on your assessment), and the revenue is going to turn this into a cash cow, right? Where should ticket fines start? What about ticketing based on ability/willingness to exceed the speed limit? The faster you go, the more you should pay!

Now, remind me where any State or local code requires my bike to have a functioning and calibrated speedometer. While we’re here, I’m trying to remember the last time I got pulled over for not having a bell or reflectors while riding in DC, too.

Also, does my bike need to be registered now that I need to show proof that my speedometer is indicating speed incorrectly when I fight my first speeding ticket?

What about the posted 15mph speed limit on the entirety of MVT? Why doesn’t USPP want to enforce the rules that are already in place?

@dasgeh 167270 wrote:

encourage more folks to bike by allowing ebikes into the mix.

How many more folks do you think this will be? Honestly, in the region, who is producing share estimates for that class (i.e., folks who are not physically able to ride a bike as trasnportation, but would if it was a Class-3 e-bike)?

[Author]

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