e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[hozn]

@Judd 167206 wrote:

Reasonable argument: hozn and I ride the same frame size and I’d like to continue buying a used bike from him once a year or so.

So, we can’t ban hozn from the trails.

Hey, I’ve got another one for you …

But I really don’t ride that fast. I certainly could never maintain 22.5mph average on my commute.

[lordofthemark]

For example, in Rosslyn/Courthouse, the Custis Trail parallels Lee Hwy. Westbound, Lee has 3 lanes, and never much traffic, but a speed limit of 35/40mph.

Well. In the City of Alexandria, we have, I think, no roads with speed limits above 35. We have reduced speed limits on three higher speed arterials (parts of Seminary, Quaker, and King) within the last two years. The city is moving forward with a vision zero plan (contents to be released shortly). Voices are calling for further reductions in speed limits, and some members of council seem amenable. I think that is where we, as a City, need to focus to make in road biking more comfortable and safe – and ALSO to make our streets safer for pedestrians and drivers. I would suggest if Arlington were to do that, riders of 20MPH ebikes might be less likely to choose trails in Arlington.

Now I know Virginia can’t legislate with only the City of Alexandria in mind (well other than when it comes to punishing jurisdictions with combined sewer outflows), but I can’t see us pushing for something different than the Calif legislation based on relative speeds between trails and parallel arterials in Arlington.

And of course I realize the difference between a trail speed limit and an ebike speed cap. I thought people calling for a 15MPH speed cap on ebikes did so because they also wanted all bikes to face a 15MPH limit on trails (at least at busy hours). OTOH I think some who the California legislation would be more amenable to a 20 MPH ebike cap, if they thought a 15MPH speed limit were actually being enforced.

[jabberwocky]

@lordofthemark 167209 wrote:

And of course I realize the difference between a trail speed limit and an ebike speed cap. I thought people calling for a 15MPH speed cap on ebikes did so because they also wanted all bikes to face a 15MPH limit on trails (at least at busy hours). OTOH I think some who the California legislation would be more amenable to a 20 MPH ebike cap, if they thought a 15MPH speed limit were actually being enforced.

I think the idea behind a 15mph power cap is to allow e-bikes to use infrastructure that was designed for purely human powered transport without too many conflicts. Not necessarily as a hard limit (since even a capped e-bike could be pedaled faster than that), just as a way to prevent powered vehicles from attaining too much speed on infrastructure that wasn’t designed for it.

[hozn]

@dasgeh 167204 wrote:

In fact, having a lower speed cap for trail-legal ebikes could make trails more crowded. For example, in Rosslyn/Courthouse, the Custis Trail parallels Lee Hwy. Westbound, Lee has 3 lanes, and never much traffic, but a speed limit of 35/40mph. It has a bike lane starting at the top of the hill. Taking the right lane up hill at 10-25mph is not all that unpleasant. Right now, plenty of riders on non-ebikes who can manage 20mph up that hill take the trail (at reasonable speeds) then take Lee instead of the trail when the trail is crowded. At 15mph it would not be fun. To get to/from the Custis/Lee from the DC, one must ride on a trail. So if you were to restrict trail access to ebikes that are capped at 15mph, those ebikes allowed to go to DC would not be comfortable taking Lee – i.e. you’d be guaranteeing they stay on the trail. If you allow the higher speed cap on the trail, more people would ride bikes generally (good thing) but then choose Lee when the trail is crowded (also good thing).

After reading it a few times, I’m not sure I fully understand this paragraph; however, I don’t think this is the best example. There are not plenty of riders that can average 20mph up that hill currently: there are apparently 17 riders of ~10,000 (i.e. 0.1% of riders) that were able to do it at those speeds once or twice. I’ve ridden it plenty of times at something closer to 15mph (and apparently once above 20mph). It is just as unpleasant to take the lane on Lee at 15mph as it is to take the lane at 20mph. Traffic will still fly by you going 45mph. And you’re next to a sound wall with little shoulder. Comfort here is just comfort riding on the road; the most comfortable I have been taking a lane on Lee was actually when riding with 3 other people chatting slowly up the hill.

So I guess the premise here that if you put a cap on trail-legal e-assist motors that these people won’t use their bikes on streets seems to be approaching this from the wrong angle. I want streets that are safe for people — e.g. my kids — to ride at 12mph. I don’t want bicycle traffic to speed up so that it can compete with cars on 50mph roads. That just seems completely backwards. I guess it feels a bit like my overall problem with the e-bike marketing about “needing faster bikes for faster lives”. Speeding up cycling traffic makes it more dangerous, which sounds like it would ultimately do little to improve the lot of cyclists. It sounds like the Amsterdams or Copenhagens show us that e-bikes don’t need to be about getting somewhere faster, so I personally am all for embracing class-1 and class-2 e-bikes on trails and all for banning class-3 ebikes from the MUPs as other states have done.

[Tania]

@dasgeh 167204 wrote:

For example, in Rosslyn/Courthouse, the Custis Trail parallels Lee Hwy. Westbound, Lee has 3 lanes, and never much traffic, but a speed limit of 35/40mph.

When was the last time you actually drove this at rush hour? Lee is absolutely PACKED from Military/Glebe-ish to 495 which is about where I bail for home. The speed limit is 30 until you’re past Falls Church and around the Pancake House (Graham) where it ups to 40. I drive this section many, many times a week.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@dasgeh 167204 wrote:

Also, there’s a confusing discussion on these last 2 pages about a speed limit on trails — I fully support having reasonable speed limits on trails for all users (ideally context dependent).

A 25mph (contextual) speed limit on any MUP in this area would only affect Class-3 e-bikers. MAMILs would remain unharmed. Snotty racers ride on the roads anyhow.

Go for it! Bring on the enforcement!

[Vicegrip]

The truth about safety on E-bikes is that the real measurable risk is to the E-rider far more so than those around them. The E-bike Rider is the person at heightened risk and it is showing up in stats already. E-bikes riders seem to have more wrecks per mile than H-bikes. They also tend to be used by older riders. This makes for a bad combo.
An E-bike rider can become Cat-1 level rider in avg speed with the flick of a switch. They likely did not get there with cat-1 levels training and road riding experience, they got there with a credit card. We can dither and thin slice the numbers all we want but the actual impact of E-bikes will become evident in time. We humans will not do much of anything until something happens that catches the public eye. Then it will be “How did this happen?!”

[Steve O]

@secstate 167192 wrote:

— apologies if they have already been mentioned in this ludicrously long thread.

ftfy

[secstate]

@Steve O 167217 wrote:

ftfy

Time to vote, then?

[LhasaCM]

@secstate 167218 wrote:

Time to vote, then?

Wait – what about the People For Bikes 10 myths about e-bikes blog post from Monday, or did I miss that? I always like the “Myth/Fact” approach to debates that are really “Opinion/Different Opinion”

[secstate]

@LhasaCM 167219 wrote:

Wait – what about the People For Bikes 10 myths about e-bikes blog post from Monday, or did I miss that? I always like the “Myth/Fact” approach to debates that are really “Opinion/Different Opinion”

I didn’t realize the bike industry was putting out talking points on e-bikes, but of course they are!

MYTH: E-bike riders will go further into remote areas and won’t be able to pedal out if their batteries die.

Heh. This conjures visions of dozens of e-bikers, starving and out of water, roaming the streets of Woodbridge, growing increasingly ragged and desperate by the day.

[dasgeh]

@hozn 167212 wrote:

After reading it a few times, I’m not sure I fully understand this paragraph;
[…]
I want streets that are safe for people — e.g. my kids — to ride at 12mph.

Fair enough. I wasn’t talking about the street, I was talking about the trail. My point is that if you only let ebikes capped at 15mph on the trails, and you expect lots of new people to ride ebikes, then, given the reality of our region (i.e. that you have to ride on trails to get into DC), you’d expect people to buy these capped ebikes. But if they’re ebikes are capped, then they’re more likely to stay on the trails, making our trails more crowded. That may be fine for your 12yo, but I want the trails to be safe for my 7yo, so I’d like a world where the trails aren’t too full. Seems like you can achieve both with a speed limit on the trails, then routes that are more attractive for those who ride fast (and yes, ebikes) to get that volume voluntarily off the trail.

[LhasaCM]

@secstate 167220 wrote:

I didn’t realize the bike industry was putting out talking points on e-bikes, but of course they are!

MYTH: E-bike riders will go further into remote areas and won’t be able to pedal out if their batteries die.

Heh. This conjures visions of dozens of e-bikers, starving and out of water, roaming the streets of Woodbridge, growing increasingly ragged and desperate by the day.

As the “fact” says – that is a lesson you learn the hard way.

[dasgeh]

@Tania 167213 wrote:

When was the last time you actually drove this at rush hour? Lee is absolutely PACKED from Military/Glebe-ish to 495 which is about where I bail for home. The speed limit is 30 until you’re past Falls Church and around the Pancake House (Graham) where it ups to 40. I drive this section many, many times a week.

I ride Lee (or the Custis) daily to essentially Quincy/Military. Not sure the last time I’ve driven it. That’s why I said ROSSLYN/COURTHOUSE. You can easily get back on the trail at Lyon Village to bypass the mess between Cherrydale and Glebe.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 167204 wrote:

I still haven’t heard a reasonable argument why you would want to ban an ebike that is able to go 25mph on the flat but not a strong rider who can go 25mph on the flat.

You have, you just haven’t acknowledged it or really responded to it. Again: the number of people who can ride at 25MPH on the trails is significantly lower than the potential number of people who could ebike at 25MPH on the trails. The current trails can’t handle that many people riding 25MPH. Also, those who do so for recreational reasons tend to specifically avoid the trails for high-speed riding. Yes, there are people who currently ride too fast on the trails, and they are conspicuous exactly because they are rare. Please, explain how the trails function for pedestrians or slow riders/children when (in some bright future for the ebike manufacturers) the majority of cyclists have vehicles that are limited by battery power rather than muscle power.

[Author]

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