e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[lordofthemark]

@EasyRider 165821 wrote:

Good luck with that. Does ANYBODY on this thread actually support “banning” e-bikes from MUPs and existing bicycle infrastructure? I’m among the skeptical voices about e-bikes and I don’t; I just think there should probably be speed limits during rush hour. Response when I floated the idea here? Crickets.

BTW, that Post editorial recently linked to here didn’t call for “banning e-bikes” either. It called for requiring A BELL on all bicycles, and mentioned that it would be especially welcome on heavy bikes that go fast (e-bikes).

There is already a 15MPH speed limit on the MVT, at all times.

Hmmmm.

[Dewey]

@hozn 165833 wrote:

The class-3 e-bikes rolling at 20+mph are not the outliers on my commute. They are [almost] the only e-bikes on my commute. (There are about half a dozen that I see with my range of commute times.) I have seen a box bike once. I have not seen any lower-power/class-1 “regular” commuting bicycles. I would notice; as someone that is obsessed with bike gear, I look at everyone’s bike. But, yeah, class-1 e-bikes are quite different. They certainly wouldn’t stand out for the behavior that concerns sjclaeys. I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the e-bikes on the trail were just class-1 e-bikes.

I ride a class 1 pedelec I converted from a pedal bicycle using a 250w mid-drive motor that is visually identical to a 750w version from the same manufacturer. Motors have the continuous power rating stamped somewhere unobtrusive, you would have to literally turn my bike upside down to tell the difference, but of course you could also tell by the speed, I’m slow and try to be a PAL. Towing my 2 year old home from swim class during rush hour the other day I reflected I don’t want or need speed, I prefer to be slow and predictable for drivers at intersections, but I do need the assist getting up hills. On ebike forums I’ve read Class 3 speed pedelec riders are sometimes commuters from further out who want to go at a good clip to arrive at work in good time.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@hozn 165833 wrote:

The class-3 e-bikes rolling at 20+mph are not the outliers on my commute. They are [almost] the only e-bikes on my commute. (There are about half a dozen that I see with my range of commute times.) I have seen a box bike once. I have not seen any lower-power/class-1 “regular” commuting bicycles. I would notice; as someone that is obsessed with bike gear, I look at everyone’s bike.

But, yeah, class-1 e-bikes are quite different. They certainly wouldn’t stand out for the behavior that concerns sjclaeys. I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the e-bikes on the trail were just class-1 e-bikes.

I’ve only seen what I think are class-1s, which is usually hybrids or cargo-type bikes, doing like 15-20 mph. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of the Specialized Turbos outside of Freshbikes showing them off on group rides.

Anyway, DC seems to have done a better job enshrining these differences into law than VA (although I have an issue with DC’s ban of e-bikes on trails). It effectively outlaws Class-3 (which would be defined as a motor-driven cycle) on bike infrastructure. Virginia allows up to 1000W motors to be classified as “electric power-assisted bicycles,” which are effectively treated the same as bikes. I think with bakfiets and such, the mph limit may be more relevant than a power limit, but I wouldn’t have a problem with only allowing Class-1 e-bikes on trails and bike infra.

[hozn]

@Dewey 165837 wrote:

On ebike forums I’ve read Class 3 speed pedelec riders are sometimes commuters from further out who want to go at a good clip to arrive at work in good time.

Yeah, that is consistent with the commuters I see. I’m riding earlier in the morning, so these are folks that are probably commuting from farther out. I don’t buy the argument that there’s an inherent right to go faster than trail traffic (or the speed limit, where that applies) because your house and your job are too far apart to commute by regular bicycle. HTFU and move, change jobs, or wake up earlier.

@TwoWheelsDC 165840 wrote:

I wouldn’t have a problem with only allowing Class-1 e-bikes on trails and bike infra.

I think that is the most extreme thing anyone here has really proposed. Personally, I would also support disallowing faster-than-class-1 e-bikes on cycling infrastructure.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@hozn 165841 wrote:

I think that is the most extreme thing anyone here has really proposed. Personally, I would also support disallowing faster-than-class-1 e-bikes on cycling infrastructure.

For better or worse, I think that kind of regulation is far off, as it would require better defined federal standards and regional agreements. But I certainly favor reasonable regulations that allow e-bikes to be used to their full utility, while limiting the potential for bikes that fall dangerously outside the range of “normal usage” on trails. The 30ish mph boost you can get on a class-3 Turbo is really pushing what any normal bike can do on a trail, but class-1 speeds really aren’t. Also, class-3 bikes are within a hairs breadth of being defined as mopeds anyway, so I don’t have much angst over just slotting them in that category, since it doesn’t require additional licensing or insurance.

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 165834 wrote:

There is already a 15MPH speed limit on the MVT, at all times.

Hmmmm.

With the standard 10 MPH leeway, that’s a 25MPH speed limit.

Side note: trail speed limits are idiotic, because they’re too low when the trail is empty and too high when the trail is crowded.

[Dewey]

@lordofthemark 165824 wrote:

Since I actually attended a meeting of BPAC’s legislative and policy sub comm, let me tell you what we determined…C. Most people seem okay with the status quo – on the one hand few folks have major complaints with ebikes rather than with bad users in general, and most ebikers who need the MVT to make connections (such as to access DC) are okay with being “scofflaws” if they are even aware they are.

At some point, when there are more ebikes, and we have gotten more where we want to be on a range of other issues, we can revisit the issue. But I would hope by then Vision Zero and other improvements would make biking in the streets more attractive to people on bikes in general, and esp to those capable of riding faster, however powered… Dasgeh has persuaded me that the impact of ebikes on this discourse is not worth worrying about…increasing the number of riders total is much more important to the entire range of bike related policy and politics issues

I’m not happy with having to break a municipal regulation every time I ride to and from work across one of the Potomac bridge sidewalks because it’s too dangerous to ride in the road. I suspect Dasgeh and every family/utility/commuter/ebikeshare Class 1 pedelec rider wanting to be safe crossing the river is unhappy about being branded as “scofflaws” because of our needing to cope with deficient infrastructure. With the introduction this week of dockless ebikeshare in the District at what point will we reach a critical mass of Class 1 pedelec riders such that cycling advocates can convincingly argue our case for changing this iniquitous rule to at least legitimize our riding on the bridge sidewalks until safer bicycle infrastructure is put in?

[EasyRider]

@lordofthemark 165834 wrote:

There is already a 15MPH speed limit on the MVT, at all times. Hmmmm.

Really? I must be going so fast that I can’t see the speed limit signs! I’d better slow down.

[EasyRider]

@mstone 165846 wrote:

With the standard 10 MPH leeway, that’s a 25MPH speed limit.

Side note: trail speed limits are idiotic, because they’re too low when the trail is empty and too high when the trail is crowded.

One might say the same of road speed limits for automobiles, but it’s not a great argument for doing away with them.

[lordofthemark]

@Dewey 165847 wrote:

I’m not happy with having to break a municipal regulation every time I ride to work across one of the Potomac bridge sidewalks because it’s too dangerous to ride in the road. I suspect Dasgeh or any other family/utility/commuter/ebikeshare Class 1 pedelec rider wanting to to be safe crossing the river means we’re happy about being considered “scofflaws” because of deficient infrastructure. With the introduction this week of dockless ebikeshare in the District at what point will we reach a critical mass of Class 1 pedelec riders such that cycling advocates can convincingly argue our case for changing this iniquitous rule to at least legitimize our riding on the bridge sidewalks until safer bicycle infrastructure is put in?

Given the number of drivers who drive at least one mile hour over the limit, the number of people on bikes who treat stop signs as yield signs, and the number of pedestrians who jaywalk, I would suggest that the number of people who have a serious angst about violating an unenforced regulation is probably less than 10% of all users. Saving that angst for 10% or less of all ebike users (and how many of them are there now?) at the costs of initiating a debate in Alexandria in which every aggrieved pedestrian (and every bad faith bike hater) talks about almost being run over by someone in lycra on the MVT does not seem like a wise use of political capital. Especially in that changing the rules on the MVT still wouldn’t give you legal access to the bridge sidepaths, which IIUC are owned by DC, not NPS. A debate that would detract from initiatives such as improving intersections and lowering speed limits (a three year old was killed by a car in Arlandria the other day – the driver may not have been at fault, but if we had a lower speed limit on residential streets perhaps that child would still be alive?)

As for the dockless ebikeshare, that is still confined to the District, no? So not really an issue for the bridges to Va yet.

[lordofthemark]

@EasyRider 165851 wrote:

One might say the same of road speed limits for automobiles, but it’s not a great argument for doing away with them.

My point was simply that whatever problems people have with ebikes, or certain types of ebikes, or certain styles of riding, are not likely to be resolved by trail speed limits (touche about the lack of signage, but I don’t think they are much more effective where signage is more extensive)

[vern]

@lordofthemark 165834 wrote:

There is already a 15MPH speed limit on the MVT, at all times.

Hmmmm.

If it’s not enforced (which it’s not) then it doesn’t really exist.

[lordofthemark]

@vern 165868 wrote:

If it’s not enforced (which it’s not) then it doesn’t really exist.

How would you enforce it? NPS officers on bikes on the MVT? (would they need to ride ebikes to make sure they could keep up with violators?) Think NPS is prepared to budget for that?

I mean we can’t even (so far) get City of Alexandria to put cops on bikes on Holmes Run Trail, which has had a crime problem in the past.

[huskerdont]

They do a bit of speed enforcement on the CCT; they could do it on the MVT. I’m not advocating this, but it could be done. Personally, if I had to remain under 15 mph no matter what the trail/traffic conditions, I’d ride on the roads instead.

[EasyRider]

Of course they’re no solution to really bad actors on any kind of bike, and aren’t enforceable, but speed limit signs are a cheap, simple way to let people know there actually is a speed limit, and to express a behavioral norm (like the PAL signs).

[Author]

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