e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[Harry Meatmotor]

@TwoWheelsDC 165255 wrote:

I hate to go over this again, but at the federal level, and in Virginia and many other states, traditional e-bikes (<750W, no boost over 20mph, pedaling required, no throttle) are not considered "motor" anything. They're just bikes. If I was a MTB enthusiast, I'd be much more concerned with trail overcrowding and jackasses riding wet trails than some noob puttering around on a 750W e-bike. I can't help but feel like this is just angst because some people think e-bikes are lazy and not cool enough to share trails, but expressed as this concern troll-y "it's harmful to the trails!" argument. At least, that's the perception of this fairly experienced rider who neither owns nor plans to own an e-bike and who generally views more riders of all types as a positive for society.

I’m pretty sure a park ranger isn’t going to care, especially if there are complaints of “motorbikes tearing up the trails”.

And it’s not troll-y to argue the fact that MTBers have been advocating for access to trail systems (for 30+ years!!!) based on the notion that they don’t ruin trail infrastructure like a motorbike does. For MTBers, it’s about stewardship of scarce resources, not elitism.

[anomad]

Depending on terrain and trail design I’ve seen motorcycles and bicycles mix pretty well. I’m probably more accommodating than some, since I love motorcycle riding too.

[lordofthemark]

@Sunyata 165260 wrote:

This was not a MORE ride but was at Lake Fairfax, which, according to FFX County park rules and regulations, motor assisted bicycles are only allowed where motor vehicles are allowed, which is NOT ON THE TRAILS.

This would apply to the GerryConnollyCrossCountyTrail as well? Which is a mix of surfaces, including paved but also gravel, and, I think, dirt – and which is at least sort of a transportation route?

[Harry Meatmotor]

@anomad 165263 wrote:

Depending on terrain and trail design I’ve seen motorcycles and bicycles mix pretty well. I’m probably more accommodating than some, since I love motorcycle riding too.

It works wonderfully when they’re designated OHV areas or fire service roads, not singletrack.

[dasgeh]

@Sunyata 165260 wrote:

E-mountain bikes can tear up trails if the user is not a seasoned MTB rider who knows how to shift their weight to keep the rear wheel from spinning out.

Fair point. Wouldn’t that be true of any rider that can put out 250W?

@Sunyata 165260 wrote:

Lastly, mountain biking should never be compared to hiking. Most people, despite their fitness or experience, can go out and hike a fairly difficult trail without fear of major injury or death. You need fitness AND experience to be able to ride even medium technical trails without immediately crashing and hurting yourself. Even the most seasoned riders still make mistakes and crash. While mountain biking, there is never a question of IF you will crash, but only WHEN.

I totally get your point about experience, but I think there are lots of people in the world who would call bs on the fitness part of your statement. It requires smarts and experience to stay safe. It requires fitness if you have to push the bike up the hill all by yourself. But when there’s a tool that exist that allows people to enjoy mountain biking without pushing the bike up the hill all by themselves, it only requires fitness if you want it to require fitness. I totally get why you would want to inject the fitness element into it when you’re making decisions for yourself, but I also get that others might like the challenge of the difficulty without the fitness part. Why do you want to exclude them?

Or put a different way, there are people who play a different game than you, but on the same trails. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to play it?

[dasgeh]

@hozn 165254 wrote:

(… But do you actually know more than 1 road racer that rides an e-bike? I have a limited sample but i have never met an e-bike rider on my commute that is even remotely a roadie, much less a racer.)

I can think of at least 5 DMV-area road racers. And this guy. (I actually found that article looking for another article I had read about an even bigger name pro who rides ebikes for transport, as not to screw up his training).

[Harry Meatmotor]

@dasgeh 165268 wrote:

Why do you want to exclude them?

Because they should be riding their motorized bikes with motorized traffic.

Because we’ve spent a lot of time and effort to open MTB trails explicitly for non-motorized trail users.

Because we’ve spent a lot of time and effort to convince hikers and equestrians that MTBers are NOT the same user class as motorcyclists.

@dasgeh 165269 wrote:

I can think of at least 5 DMV-area road racers. And this guy. (I actually found that article looking for another article I had read about an even bigger name pro who rides ebikes for transport, as not to screw up his training).

Bahati???? :rolleyes:

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Harry Meatmotor 165261 wrote:

I’m pretty sure a park ranger isn’t going to care, especially if there are complaints of “motorbikes tearing up the trails”.

A park ranger may not care about the distinction, but legally I just don’t think a citation or other punishment would hold up, since Virginia law treats e-bikes the same as regular bikes, and not as “motorized vehicles.” Even mopeds (many of the throttled e-bikes would fall under the moped definition) are not considered “motor vehicles”, but Virginia law explicitly bars them from paths and sidewalks. Critical to the definition of a “motor vehicle” in Virginia is that the vehicle is self-propelled. An e-bike (and moped, for that matter) that requires pedal input is not “self-propelled” and e-bikes are explicitly excluded from the definition of “motor vehicles” in Virginia code. DC doesn’t use the “self-propelled” language that VA does, but explicitly states that “motorized bicycles” are not “motor vehicles.”

TL;DR; An e-bike is NOT a motor vehicle in Virginia (or DC) and trails barring “motorized vehicles” by definition do not bar e-bikes.

VA Code § 46.2-100. Definitions.

“Motor vehicle” means every vehicle as defined in this section that is self-propelled or designed for self-propulsion except as otherwise provided in this title. Any structure designed, used, or maintained primarily to be loaded on or affixed to a motor vehicle to provide a mobile dwelling, sleeping place, office, or commercial space shall be considered a part of a motor vehicle. Except as otherwise provided, for the purposes of this title, any device herein defined as a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, or moped shall be deemed not to be a motor vehicle.

DC Code § 50-1401.01

(f) For purposes of this section and §§ 50-1401.02 and 50-1403.01, the term “motor vehicle” means a vehicle propelled by an internal-combustion engine, electricity, or steam. The term “motor vehicle” shall not include a traction engine, road roller, vehicle propelled only upon rails or tracks, personal assistive mobility device, as defined by § 50-2201.02(12), a battery-operated wheelchair when operated by a person with a disability, or a motorized bicycle.

[Brandon]

I feel like I should finally chime in on one of these threads. There’s always a lot of talk about distinguishing between what should or shouldn’t be allowed on trails, in group rides, etc. The general consensus I’ve seen is that the real concern is inexperienced riders flying along the trail at unsafe speeds being jackasses and as long an ebike rider is being courteous, polite, safe, etc. no one really has any heartburn with it. BUT I do think that there’s another distinction which could/should be made in this regard, and that’s a throttle input. My bike has no throttle. It’s not going anywhere unless I’m pedaling and the motor only provides a percentage assist to my pedal effort. This is generally how most ebikes operate, although some also have a throttle or throttle option. And I have no concerns in saying that the assistance the motor gives couldn’t throw up a rooster tail in dirt anymore than a non-ebike in the same circumstances, i.e. if you drop down gear, lean forward, and are really cranking it, I suppose you could.

Additionally, I think it’s really important to really read the Fairfax County Park regulation:
B. Prohibited Vehicles.
(1) No person shall operate within a park a motorized vehicle not licensed for regular use
upon public highways, except that motorized carts furnished or approved by the Park
Authority may be operated within designated areas and motorized wheelchairs may be
operated in areas as provided for in §1.14(C) below.
(2) No person shall operate within a park a farm tractor or other farm machinery or a type of
vehicle used primarily for earth-moving operations, whether or not licensed for regular
use upon public highways, without the express written permission of the Park Authority.
(3) Motor-assisted bicycles (commonly referred to as “mopeds”) are permitted only in areas
where motor vehicles are permitted.

A plain reading of that indicates that the prohibition is for mopeds, gas-powered, throttled motor vehicles. It’s also important to note that the park rules (regulations) haven’t been amended in many years and predate the advent of ebikes. And that more recent state and county statutes have been written and passed which more clearly define and generally prescribe how ebikes should be treated and regulated. Now absolutely, the park authority can decide that ebikes should also be prohibited (should be done by updating their regulations), but it’s worth mentioning these facts because I think they’re on shaky legal ground if they actually tried to cite someone and that person contested it. Because there is a very distinct difference between mopeds (which this regulation is clearly intended for) and electric pedal-assist bikes. Now if that ebike had a throttle, I think it would start to fall more under the prohibition (that’s my opinion).

So in short, I don’t think any ebike should be denied joining a group ride under the auspices that they’re not welcome in FFX county parks. Many would want to join a group ride for the social aspect, to feel part of a community, not that they’re going to have the upper hand in some sort of competition with non-ebike riders. Now, if the group doing the ride has some sort of liability insurance, that’s a totally different story since ebikes would likely not be covered. But, firsthand, I can say that I haven’t participated in any sort of social aspect of biking due to the fear of not being welcomed. I’ve had very rude comments yelled at me on my commute about riding an ebike. And I’m not the guy that’s riding dangerously, I average 14-16 mph on my commute, signal passes, etc. Eventually, by commuting with my ebike, I will lose the weight I am shooting for and be fit enough to be back on a regular bike and will then feel more welcome to join group rides etc. Right now I wouldn’t want to join any on a regular bike and be that guy slowing everyone down.

[anomad]

@Harry Meatmotor 165267 wrote:

It works wonderfully when they’re designated OHV areas or fire service roads, not singletrack.

I’ll take you on some great singletrack out West that’s open to both.

[hozn]

@dasgeh 165268 wrote:

Fair point. Wouldn’t that be true of any rider that can put out 250W?

No, it is pretty hard to spin out the rear tire on a MTB (on anything but the loosest surfaces) using just leg-power to drive the rear wheel. It would be awkward to put out that kind of power if you had shifted your weight forward between the wheels. In practice, even novice MTBers aren’t going around breaking rear-wheel traction. Maybe skidding their rear wheel. I had to provide some guidance to my son about that on Monday’s Wakefield ride.

@dasgeh 165268 wrote:

I totally get your point about experience, but I think there are lots of people in the world who would call bs on the fitness part of your statement. It requires smarts and experience to stay safe. It requires fitness if you have to push the bike up the hill all by yourself. But when there’s a tool that exist that allows people to enjoy mountain biking without pushing the bike up the hill all by themselves, it only requires fitness if you want it to require fitness. I totally get why you would want to inject the fitness element into it when you’re making decisions for yourself, but I also get that others might like the challenge of the difficulty without the fitness part. Why do you want to exclude them?

Or put a different way, there are people who play a different game than you, but on the same trails. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to play it?

I agree with Sunyata on this one too. There is a fitness element to not getting injured on a mountain bike. It’s not just about pedaling up a hill. Sure that takes fitness too, but there is a lot of core strength that needs to be brought to bear at riding with speed through technical terrain.

I think there’s something to the argument about “earning speed” for MTB. A buddy suggested that an eMTB would be great for kids so they could keep up with their parents. I really recoiled at that idea. There is no way I want my son to be able to ride 20mph through the woods with a throttle. He’d kill himself. Sure there are downhills where one could achieve the same speed on a conventional bike, but the conventional bike is a fraction of the weight. And when your bike falls on top of you when you go over the bars, weight matters.

I think “earning speed” applies to the road too, but there it’s more about the danger you pose to others. There’s a lot of riding experience needed before someone can mix in a group ride and right now the way you get fast enough to get in that group ride is by riding a ton. There are some exceptions — aka “triathletes” — but generally it is accepted that you put in the time to learn to handle your bike well before you’re going to be welcome riding a few inches from someone’s wheel.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@anomad 165274 wrote:

I’ll take you on some great singletrack out West that’s open to both.

Yeah, I should’ve added a minor caveat that just about anywhere west of the Mississippi the bigger land use question is between ATVs, Motos, side-by-sides, and OHV Passenger vehicles.

[mstone]

@hozn 165278 wrote:

I think “earning speed” applies to the road too, but there it’s more about the danger you pose to others. There’s a lot of riding experience needed before someone can mix in a group ride and right now the way you get fast enough to get in that group ride is by riding a ton. There are some exceptions — aka “triathletes”

There! Can’t we all just unify around making fun of triathletes and end this bikering over ebikes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOUhAftzVOg

[anomad]

Whatever people think about ebikes… They are here to stay. We better just start figuring out how to ride with them and the “individuals” using them. The ebike pilots will hopefully prove to be a similar bell curve distribution of the rest of society.

Bicycles will go the way of horses and sails in some ways.

[Left Field]

@anomad 165305 wrote:

Whatever people think about ebikes… They are here to stay. We better just start figuring out how to ride with them and the “individuals” using them. The ebike pilots will hopefully prove to be a similar bell curve distribution of the rest of society.

Bicycles will go the way of horses and sails in some ways.

Bite thy tongue. The velmoninati shall take thee to the Inquisition. E-Bikes are here to stay and that is a good thing. Who knows, if there is enough adoption, maybe it changes road use. One can hope.

[Author]

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