e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Harry Meatmotor 164050 wrote:

adding a technological red-herring is no longer a red-herring.

And what if CaBi started marketing their red-herring

Seriously no offense intended here, but “red-herring” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

[Dewey]

@Harry Meatmotor 164050 wrote:

Why does a cargo bike need to go 15mph up a hill, anyway?

John MacArthur at Portland State U surveyed US ebike owners in 2012 and published a slide set (a 2017 survey recently closed):
– slide #32…30% reported they have a physical condition that makes riding a standard bicycle difficult,
and
– slide #36…compare the male/female responses in columns 4, 5, and 6. Difficult to generalize because the survey sample was so skewed towards males but it suggests ebikes help people and families who otherwise might not have made the journey get up hills, run errands, commute to work, etc.

I hope this years survey had more participants, a more even gender balance, easier to identify sub-groups such as cargo bike owners, etc. Moar data…

[lordofthemark]

@Harry Meatmotor 164050 wrote:

Why does a cargo bike need to go 15mph up a hill, anyway?

If they are riding in traffic, that would be a most excellent feature to have. It would be for me a principle benefit of buying one. Not to set speed records, but to be able to ride more comfortably in traffic.

Perhaps someday ebike speed governors (that is the correct word, right) will be smart enough to recognize if the bike is on a trail or on the road? At that point they will be far safer than fast road bikes.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@TwoWheelsDC 164055 wrote:

Seriously no offense intended here, but “red-herring” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

I was poking fun at the original usage, thanks!

Also hoping that we can add to the lexicon: Red-Herring Hood—a rider of an e-bike.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@Dewey 164056 wrote:

I’m glad you asked that as I love a slide set– John MacArthur at Portland State U surveyed US ebike owners in 2012 (a 2017 survey is currently ongoing):
– slide #32…30% reported they have a physical condition that makes riding a standard bicycle difficult,
and
– slide #36…compare the male/female responses in columns 3, 4, and 5.

The DC area is hilly, ebikes – cargo and otherwise – help people get up hills.

The point I was trying to make was that 15mph up a steep hill on a 300lb cargo bike is a bit much. 9mph, sure, that’s “keeping with traffic”.

[Dewey]

@lordofthemark 164057 wrote:

Perhaps someday ebike speed governors (that is the correct word, right) will be smart enough to recognize if the bike is on a trail or on the road?.

I think you mean the controller? That’s what governs the current flow from the battery to the motor, and can set the motor assist speed limit. For some motors there are controller programming switches, for others there are phone apps, but none are automated and they’re rarely fitted by road ebike cyclists, I think they originated because off-road ebike riders wanted some way to switch between off-road and on-road power modes. I would think an automated application might be well suited for longer distance commuters who might prefer the faster Class 3 speed pedelecs but need to slow down when using bicycle infrastructure closer in – maybe something phone/gps based using gps tracker chips in bike frames and bluetooth controllers, it has to be less complicated/cheaper than autonomous vehicle software.

[Judd]

@TwoWheelsDC 164055 wrote:

Seriously no offense intended here, but “red-herring” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Herring aren’t even red.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15359[/ATTACH]

[dasgeh]

@Harry Meatmotor 164059 wrote:

The point I was trying to make was that 15mph up a steep hill on a 300lb cargo bike is a bit much. 9mph, sure, that’s “keeping with traffic”.

Not on a road.

When bikes are transportation, they need to have the ability to go on road (because trails don’t go everywhere) and on trail (because there are enough routes where the only safe option is trail). So the bike having the ability to keep up with road traffic is important. The rider having the sense to not do stupid stuff on the trail is also important.

And plenty of people go 12-15mph up the Custis hill.

[dasgeh]

@dasgeh 164017 wrote:

The reason the anti-ebike argument grates on me is that the “e” part of the bike is a red herring. The logical position would be to ban any vehicle from a trail that has the ability to obtain unsafe speeds. Yet, anti-ebike folks don’t want to ban (as I understand it) road bikes ridden by roadies, and those have the ability to obtain unsafe speeds. So why should only fit people be allowed on vehicles that have the ability to obtain unsafe speeds, but not unfit people and people with heavy loads?

@Harry Meatmotor 164050 wrote:

“unfit” meaning able to generate enough power to pedal a bike at 20+ mph on the flats, or “unfit” meaning unable to pilot a bike safely for themselves and other trail users at 20+ mph?

Pretty sure it’s crystal clear from context that I meant the former. So much so, that at this point I wonder whether you’re trolling.

But I will assume, for now, that you are here for a real conversation.

@Harry Meatmotor 164050 wrote:

If the former […]
Just imagine how many more bike/ped altercations would take place if we threw a 500w motor into every CaBi. And what if CaBi started marketing their red-herring: “the biggest thing it can save is your most precious resource … your time.” ZOOOOOOM!!!

As far as heavy loads: I’m pretty sure we have an adequate model for regulating vehicles carrying heavy loads while sharing roadways with smaller, lighter weight vehicles, e.g., motorcycles. Vehicle specific regulations, permitting, and licensing.

Why does a cargo bike need to go 15mph up a hill, anyway?

To take these points in reverse order:
– For the same reasons a person would want to ride a non-cargo bike up a hill at 15mph. Why would the cargo part make any difference?

– Not entirely sure of your analogy here — if you mean to say cargo bikes are cars and regular bikes are motorcycles, and thus the varying requirements of each, then you vastly overestimate the difference in weight and size of a cargo bike v. a non-cargo bike. But regardless, this isn’t an ebike issue. Pedal assist adds around 40lbs to a given bike. That’s far less than they variation in rider weight on this forum.

– CaBi does market on saving people time, and I would fully support adding ebikes to the CaBi fleet, just like Baltimore’s bikeshare (which has never seen a death!) has done.

– The ability to ride a bike fast does not depend on bike handling skills. Any adult-sized person could get a CaBi well over 20mph on many of the downhills on the Custis (not recommended). Of course, common sense dictates that a person with poor bike handling skills not ride too fast, but that’s true whether the ability to ride fast comes from a motor, gravity, or just very large muscles.

Again, your comments seem to come down to “only people in very good physical shape should be allowed on vehicles that can obtain high speeds (on flats/uphills) on trails”, which is ridiculous.

[Steve O]

@Tania 164024 wrote:

I’m reasonably fit although by no means nearly as fit or as efficient as a good majority.

This is total BS, of course. The second part, that is.

@Tania 164024 wrote:

Otherwise, I’ll chill and chit chat with the person in front of me until it’s clear to pass.

And another good reason to ride around on the trails–you might have Tania catch you from behind.
And a bad reason to have an e-bike: she might not catch you as easily then.

[DismalScientist]

One might argue that being fit and fast is a result of riding a lot and is therefore correlated with better bike handling skills (but not necessarily common sense).

[Harry Meatmotor]

@dasgeh 164065 wrote:

The rider having the sense to not do stupid stuff on the trail is also important.

So, is the “sense to not do stupid stuff on the trail” part of the “skills”?

@dasgeh 164067 wrote:

The ability to ride a bike fast does not depend on bike handling skills.

?????

@dasgeh 164067 wrote:

“only people in very good physical shape should be allowed on vehicles that can obtain high speeds (on flats/uphills) on trails”, which is ridiculous.

People that don’t have good bike handling skills while riding at 28mph present a higher risk for all trail users if they’re piloting a Class 2 or Class 3 e-bike. I’m arguing for safer trails.

Why is a Class 1 e-bike not fast enough?

Why should my little sister and her 3 year old son feel safer on a 14 foot-wide MUT where a 300lb* cargo bike can travel at 28mph with no pedal input?

Why does SolarBikeCar cause so much angst here? Dasgeh, do you agree that he should be allowed on the trail, too?

Let’s go back to one of my original posts on this topic:

The 2 folks I see regularly on the trail (illegally) riding 750W+ throttle e-bikes wear full-face moto helmets. Why?

* just so we’re clear on the math for the sticklers here: 180lb rider + 80lb cargo bike + 40lb batteries/motor

[DrP]

I admit, I get annoyed whenever someone passes me going up hill without any clear effort and I am pedaling hard. That person is always on an e-bike. I see e-bikes all over ridden by both generally reasonable people and the jerks. Same with regular bikes. I understand the concern folks have with the fairly inexperienced rider being able to go really fast (how many teenagers would you want in a Ferrari or Lamborghini riding the local roads? Or with diminished reflexes, like many elderly (and they do accidentally run over people in Farmers Markets and the like)?). However, I see the overwhelming concern on this thread of people of all the jerks (for want of a better term) on the trails.

Barring law enforcement on the trails, keeping e-bikes off will be hard, keeping people going a safe speed for the conditions will be hard, and even getting people to call their passes as stated in the “rules” posted at occasional entrances to trails will be hard. However, I think the latter along with the general improvement on the trails may be possible. But we, the trail using community, need to be pushing it. I am sure the runners and walkers aren’t happy with the crowded trails either. Do we find a way to work with them to come up with trail etiquette (and I use that term rather than rules. Rules are for officials to enforce. Etiquette is for the population to enforce, perhaps via twitter or facebook or just telling someone it is uncool. No one wants to be uncool) that we somehow get bicycle and sports stores to post and hand out with each new bike and new pair of running or walking shoes? Do we use it to encourage all the different clubs and groups that use the trails – including the local schools that set their runners training on the trails and races that use the trails (some are well organized, some are not at all)?

Anyway, I keep thinking there is something the community can do about the lack of “coolness” (for want of a better phrase) aside from a few of us talking about it on these pages.

[Subby]

In fact, the only thing lame here is the implication in this statement (and others on this thread) that only fit and unburdened people should be equipped with the ability to bike fast on trails.

Okay cool so at least we can all agree that fit and unburdened people using pedal assist on flats are lame af!

CONSENSUS! Woohoo!

[Judd]

@Harry Meatmotor 164080 wrote:

* just so we’re clear on the math for the sticklers here: 180lb rider + 80lb cargo bike + 40lb batteries/motor

That’s only 300 pounds…. your previous use of “+” after “300” invalidates all of your arguments.

[Author]

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