e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 163872 wrote:

I can’t find any official text other than “no mopeds or other motorized vehicles.” Not a lawyer, but the intent here seems to parallel the federal (and VA) rules about the definition of mopeds and motorized bikes. E-bikes under 750 watts and that can’t go over 20mph without pedaling are NOT/NOT considered mopeds or motorized vehicles according to federal and VA law…so by my reading, such e-bikes would be allowed on the trail.

If you want to get legalistic, it should also be noted that the W&OD is only open from 5am-9pm from Shirlington to Herndon. No one seems eager to enforce that rule though…

And note, I at least, am not calling for anyone to enforce rules against ebikes. There are certainly more important things for NPS to do (getting back to the MVT). I am just not sure that I want to call for existing rules against them need to be changed, given that this is an evolving situation. Note, some of us feel more comfortable violating certain regulations than others of us do.

A word to the wise though. If I ride the WOD at 9:30 and hit a pedestrian (I ride particularly slowly and carefully at those hours) the ped is also unlawfully on the trail. I assume thats a wash in a civil suit.

If I ride an ebike on the MVT and hit a ped, well …..

[dhs1963]

Assuming I ride my e-bike safely and courteously, does anyone care what type of bike I drive? Or do I have to get a hidden motor / battery? I will ride on the W O & D and Custis. But I promise not to be a jerk. And feel free to draft behind me.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 163872 wrote:

I can’t find any official text other than “no mopeds or other motorized vehicles.” Not a lawyer, but the intent here seems to parallel the federal (and VA) rules about the definition of mopeds and motorized bikes. E-bikes under 750 watts and that can’t go over 20mph without pedaling are NOT/NOT considered mopeds or motorized vehicles according to federal and VA law…so by my reading, such e-bikes would be allowed on the trail.

Are you looking at the friends of the WOD page? Because on the NVRPA rules page https://www.novaparks.com/sites/default/files/RULESRevised.pdf on page 25 it says “Paved and gravel surface trails are open to all forms of non-motorized transportation unless posted
otherwise.”

and in the park regs it says

“(3) Motor-assisted bicycles (commonly referred to as “mopeds”) are permitted only in areas
where motor vehicles are permitted.”

Ebikes clearly ARE motor assisted bicycles. But are not commonly referred to as mopeds. So, not clear.

[lordofthemark]

@dhs1963 163874 wrote:

Assuming I ride my e-bike safely and courteously, does anyone care what type of bike I drive? Or do I have to get a hidden motor / battery? I will ride on the W O & D and Custis. But I promise not to be a jerk. And feel free to draft behind me.

I am not interested in shaming anyone (though saying you are “driving” your bike is annoying, esp if you are so unVCish as to use a MUT when there are miles of beautiful road lanes to take) for riding an ebike. I am just trying to decide if, as a bike advocate in Alexandria, revoking the NPS nominal ban on ebikes is something that should go on our list of asks. I am not convinced.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@lordofthemark 163875 wrote:

Are you looking at the friends of the WOD page? Because on the NVRPA rules page https://www.novaparks.com/sites/default/files/RULESRevised.pdf on page 25 it says “Paved and gravel surface trails are open to all forms of non-motorized transportation unless posted
otherwise.”

and in the park regs it says

“(3) Motor-assisted bicycles (commonly referred to as “mopeds”) are permitted only in areas
where motor vehicles are permitted.”

Ebikes clearly ARE motor assisted bicycles. But are not commonly referred to as mopeds. So, not clear.

Although the rules seem unclear, they actually aren’t really…A “typical” e-bike is not classified as a motor vehicle (meaning, not motorized) according to the federal regs. Some states DO classify e-bikes as “motorized”, but Virginia is not one of them. Virginia calls them “electric power-assisted bicycles.”

The rule against “non-motorized” transportation seems pretty clearly aimed at mopeds and vehicles further up the food chain.

[Judd]

@lordofthemark 163875 wrote:

“(3) Motor-assisted bicycles (commonly referred to as “mopeds”) are permitted only in areas
where motor vehicles are permitted.”

This whole thread could be resolved if lawmakers knew the difference between an engine and a motor and I knew the difference between under the bell curve and within 1 standard deviation of the mean.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 163877 wrote:

Although the rules seem unclear, they actually aren’t really…A “typical” e-bike is not classified as a motor vehicle (meaning, not motorized) according to the federal regs. Some states DO classify e-bikes as “motorized”, but Virginia is not one of them. Virginia calls them “electric power-assisted bicycles.”

The rule against “non-motorized” transportation seems pretty clearly aimed at mopeds and vehicles further up the food chain.

The rules refers to motor assisted, which sure sounds different than a moped to me, but like a vehicle that can also be pedalled. . Are mopeds “motor assisted” They did not say electric assisted – is that because they think there will be gas power motor assisted vehicles?

[TwoWheelsDC]

@lordofthemark 163884 wrote:

The rules refers to motor assisted, which sure sounds different than a moped to me, but like a vehicle that can also be pedalled. . Are mopeds “motor assisted” They did not say electric assisted – is that because they think there will be gas power motor assisted vehicles?

Mopeds have pedals and are motor-assisted (motorized). If it has pedals and can go faster than 20mph without pedaling, regardless of motor type (electric or internal combustion), it’s a moped.* If it can’t go over 20 without pedaling, it’s a “low-speed e-bike.”* If it doesn’t have pedals, it’s a scooter or motorcycle.

For all intents and purposes, e-bikes are not considered to have “motors” in the legal sense, as far as I can tell.

My understanding:

motorcycle = motorized
scooter = motorized
moped = motorized
e-bike = not motorized

*at least this is how I read the regs

[dhs1963]

@lordofthemark 163875 wrote:

Are you looking at the friends of the WOD page? Because on the NVRPA rules page https://www.novaparks.com/sites/default/files/RULESRevised.pdf on page 25 it says “Paved and gravel surface trails are open to all forms of non-motorized transportation unless posted
otherwise.”

and in the park regs it says

“(3) Motor-assisted bicycles (commonly referred to as “mopeds”) are permitted only in areas
where motor vehicles are permitted.”

Ebikes clearly ARE motor assisted bicycles. But are not commonly referred to as mopeds. So, not clear.

Mopeds have a different legal definition. The fact that they call out “Mopeds” means bikes are ok.

[lordofthemark]

@TwoWheelsDC 163885 wrote:

Mopeds have pedals and are motor-assisted (motorized). If it has pedals and can go faster than 20mph without pedaling, regardless of motor type (electric or internal combustion), it’s a moped.* If it can’t go over 20 without pedaling, it’s a “low-speed e-bike.”* If it doesn’t have pedals, it’s a scooter or motorcycle.

For all intents and purposes, e-bikes are not considered to have “motors” in the legal sense, as far as I can tell.

My understanding:

motorcycle = motorized
scooter = motorized
moped = motorized
e-bike = not motorized

*at least this is how I read the regs

From what I can gather a moped though it has pedals, does is not really easy to ride with the pedals alone. That seems like more than an assist from the motor. But if that is the term of art, it is what it is. But I still think the NVRPA rules are confusing.

[lordofthemark]

@dhs1963 163886 wrote:

Mopeds have a different legal definition. The fact that they call out “Mopeds” means bikes are ok.

But they don’t call out ebikes as okay, and elsewhere they do explicitly refer to human powered bikes, etc.

[Judd]

@TwoWheelsDC 163885 wrote:

For all intents and purposes, e-bikes are not considered to have “motors” in the legal sense, as far as I can tell.

My understanding:

It really depends on what your definition of “is” is.

[dbb]

@Judd 163878 wrote:

This whole thread could be resolved if …. I knew the difference between under the bell curve and within 1 standard deviation of the mean.

31.8%. You’re welcome.

[DismalScientist]

I think all of this would be solved if we simply limited the definition of a bicycle to something with a horizontal top tube.

[dbb]

@DismalScientist 163893 wrote:

I think all of this would be solved if we simply limited the definition of a bicycle to something with a horizontal top tube.

And shifters on the down tube, as God intended.

[Author]

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