e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[dasgeh]

@zsionakides 163769 wrote:

When you see someone on an ebike doing the same thing at 28mph, you’ll understand why there is so much consternation at allowing ebikes on the trails. Riding 25-30mph on even a road or TTbike is very hard, and only a few can do it. Giving anyone that kind of power under them completely changes the dynamics of the trails from being recreational to being mini highways.

It depends on the grade. There are parts of the Custis where you can easily hit 30mph without pedaling. Besides, it’s entirely likely that the segment of the population that right now doesn’t ride a bike is overall more cautious and that the average cycling behavior would improve if more folks were on ebikes. Because it’s not the bike, it’s the behavior.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 163771 wrote:

It depends on the grade. There are parts of the Custis where you can easily hit 30mph without pedaling. Besides, it’s entirely likely that the segment of the population that right now doesn’t ride a bike is overall more cautious and that the average cycling behavior would improve if more folks were on ebikes. Because it’s not the bike, it’s the behavior.

that is one explanation for the otherwise odd phenomenon that cyclist behavior is better where and when there are more riders. When we make biking dangerous or uncomfortable, only the risk lovers will ride, when we make it like Copenhagen ordinary folks will ride. Not clear though if that applies when the barrier to riding is not its real or perceived danger, but the physical effort – for sure there are reckless drivers around here. A lot of this may get to how ebikes are sold and marketed – is this something that A. You can use to roll 15 MPH down the trails, despite your age/physical condition/heavy load. B. Something that will make it more comfortable for you to take the lanes on the gaps in the seg infra network or C. Something that will enable you to scoot into work at 20MPH plus without riding with cars. Its also possible that the different classes of ebikes are being marketed differently.

[Crickey7]

It seems to me that it’s in the interests of the larger ebike manufacturers to push for the development of reasonable model codes for municipalities. If everyone agreed upon what constituted a low-powered bike that would be the easiest sell for allowing on all bike infra, then these manufacturers would have predictability. The alternative could be a wattage race among manufacturers that would make people more reluctant to allow ebikes on bike infra, which would in turn reduce some of the attractiveness for consumers.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@dasgeh 163771 wrote:

It depends on the grade. There are parts of the Custis where you can easily hit 30mph without pedaling. Besides, it’s entirely likely that the segment of the population that right now doesn’t ride a bike is overall more cautious and that the average cycling behavior would improve if more folks were on ebikes. Because it’s not the bike, it’s the behavior.

I’m sorry, I’m calling BS. Dasgeh, I’m calling you out personally. Strava or it didn’t happen. Show me the ride where you hit 30mph (easily) on the Custis riding a normal (not 100lb cargo bike). Otherwise, you’re spouting misinformed conjecture.

“Easily hitting 30mph” without pedaling is not possible on a regular hybrid or road bike along the Custis with average folks making 250w (Max!).

I’m also calling BS on the whole “more e-bike users = better average cycling behavior”. The second you give some trailboss, CAT6, pathlete an extra 750w, he’s gonna be a d*ck.

I’m laying out my hand here: There are too many people on this board that think that anything faster than them is “30+ mph”. Yet, at the same time, I see the same folks trying to defend e-bike use on the trail where 25+ mph is ACTUALLY EASILY attainable with only (roughly) 200w of rider input on top of 750w+ of e-assist.

I’m trying to get this straight: It’s okay for an e-bike user with limited bike handling skills to “easily” hit speeds in excess of 25mph on a bike/ped trail (because, hay, they’re out riding, at least!), yet the second some dirtbag on a road bike does that under his own power, zooming past other trail users, he’s lambasted for being an “MF-r” or an “A-hole”?

Hello! Hypocrisy!

[rcannon100]

harry meatmotor;163778 wrote:

i’m laying out my hand here: There are too many people on this board that think that anything faster than them is “12+ mph”.

ftfy

[lordofthemark]

@Crickey7 163776 wrote:

It seems to me that it’s in the interests of the larger ebike manufacturers to push for the development of reasonable model codes for municipalities. If everyone agreed upon what constituted a low-powered bike that would be the easiest sell for allowing on all bike infra, then these manufacturers would have predictability. The alternative could be a wattage race among manufacturers that would make people more reluctant to allow ebikes on bike infra, which would in turn reduce some of the attractiveness for consumers.

Is it the wattage, or having a speed max for the motor? Because I imagine any wattage (someone else do the physics) that could enable one to pull a couple of kids in a trail at 13MPH, would enable an unencumbered rider to do a speed that is too fast.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Harry Meatmotor 163778 wrote:

“Easily hitting 30mph” without pedaling is not possible on a regular hybrid or road bike along the Custis with average folks making 250w (Max!).

Hello! Hypocrisy!

You sure about that?

[Harry Meatmotor]

@lordofthemark 163780 wrote:

Is it the wattage, or having a speed max for the motor? Because I imagine any wattage (someone else do the physics) that could enable one to pull a couple of kids in a trail at 13MPH, would enable an unencumbered rider to do a speed that is too fast.

1,000W is your magic number. Rider input = 200W (average recreational cyclist during a hard effort of 5-15 minutes) + 750W+ (which is on the low end of the scale for most current gen e-bikes from large OBMs) = enough power to do 25mph on the flats “for days.”

1kW = ~1.35hp. To put 1kW in perspective, the lycra-clad goons in TdF sprints will usually put out about 1.5–2.0+kW for about 30s during a sprint finish.

1kW for 30 seconds to a minute is A LOT of power.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@TwoWheelsDC 163781 wrote:

You sure about that?

So, it’s proof that you’re riding on the Custis @ 30mph?

How many folks here think that 30mph is too fast for the Custis?

Like I said, the hypocrisy here stinks to high heavens.

(also, we’re talking average cyclist here, not year-round commuter. How ’bout you pull up the power screen; 400-something watts max and 150+ average normalized power is a bit outside of the median)

[TwoWheelsDC]

@Harry Meatmotor 163783 wrote:

So, it’s proof that you’re riding on the Custis @ 30mph?

How many folks here think that 30mph is too fast for the Custis?

Like I said, the hypocrisy here stinks to high heavens.

Just pointing out that your very definitive statement is demonstrably false. I don’t have a strong opinion on e-bikes one way or another beyond “set some standards for manufacturers that are reasonable enough to be safe but also provide some incentive for people to ride who might not otherwise.” If those standards turn to be insufficient, then re-work as needed.

Dick behavior is dick behavior…has nothing to do with speed or type of bike. 30mph can be perfectly safe on the trail and 10mph can be insanely unsafe, depending on the context. If e-bike riders become a menace, then address that when it happens. But I’ve seen nothing to indicate that they are fundamentally a problem.

[Steve O]

@TwoWheelsDC 163781 wrote:

You sure about that?

You were not coasting or you would have lost a lot more speed between the sisters. You pretty much have to pedal to hit 30+. Unless you are already almost at 30 when you hit the top of the hill, which would have required pedaling hard up the backside. I’m with Meatmotor here: 30+ is doable on that section of the Custis, but you have to put in some work–it’s not “easily” possible coasting.

[Steve O]

@Harry Meatmotor 163783 wrote:

So, it’s proof that you’re riding on the Custis @ 30mph?

How many folks here think that 30mph is too fast for the Custis?

It’s context driven. I have no problem with someone riding that section of the Custis at 30+ if it’s empty, or there’s a single cyclist coming the other way. Certainly I have many times. But if there are other trail users about I modify my riding accordingly to accommodate their safety and comfort.
I used to commute on the CCT. There were days in February when I was the only person out there for 2-3 miles at a time. Coming the downhill direction I felt no guilt exceeding the posted speed limit by more than a little. There were days in May near Bethesda where riding even 10mph would be dangerous, the trail was so crowded with people. Context.

[hozn]

@Harry Meatmotor 163778 wrote:

I’m laying out my hand here: There are too many people on this board that think that anything faster than them is “30+ mph”. Yet, at the same time, I see the same folks trying to defend e-bike use on the trail where 25+ mph is ACTUALLY EASILY attainable with only (roughly) 200w of rider input on top of 750w+ of e-assist.

I’m trying to get this straight: It’s okay for an e-bike user with limited bike handling skills to “easily” hit speeds in excess of 25mph on a bike/ped trail (because, hay, they’re out riding, at least!), yet the second some dirtbag on a road bike does that under his own power, zooming past other trail users, he’s lambasted for being an “MF-r” or an “A-hole”?

Hello! Hypocrisy!

I think we could quote Eddie Izzard here. “The National Rifle Association says, ‘Guns don’t kill people. People do’. But I think the gun helps.”

https://youtu.be/KsN0FCXw914

I think if you come up with a sane (low) max speed and sane (low) wattage output (@lordofthemark, I think limits on both are appropriate; I don’t think that hauling an extra 150lbs should entitle one to more wattage; you just get to go slower which seems appropriate from a safety/damage-to-others perspective) these things will work just fine. And then someone has to enforce the rules.

[dhs1963]

@Harry Meatmotor 163782 wrote:

1,000W is your magic number. Rider input = 200W (average recreational cyclist during a hard effort of 5-15 minutes) + 750W+ (which is on the low end of the scale for most current gen e-bikes from large OBMs) = enough power to do 25mph on the flats “for days.”

1kW = ~1.35hp. To put 1kW in perspective, the lycra-clad goons in TdF sprints will usually put out about 1.5–2.0+kW for about 30s during a sprint finish.

1kW for 30 seconds to a minute is A LOT of power.

You are showing your ignorance. Most ebikes are 250 or 350 W. Now, there are some american brands that use larger motors (e.g., Pedego), but globally, the majority of ebikes are pedal assist (no throttle) with lower power. What the US needs to do is adopt the european standards for ebikes. Problem solved.

As for the “for days” it is really until the battery dies. When I bought mine, it was apparent that, at high assist, the throttle-based bikes will only last about 20 miles at higher speeds. Anyone that uses an ebike knows this.

For my bike, in the “turbo mode”, for each foot-pound of torque I apply, my bike will give about 2.5 foot pounds. And yes, I can cruise at more than 20 mph easily. However, my battery will drain in about 17 miles.

[dhs1963]

@Harry Meatmotor 163778 wrote:

I’m sorry, I’m calling BS. Dasgeh, I’m calling you out personally. Strava or it didn’t happen. Show me the ride where you hit 30mph (easily) on the Custis riding a normal (not 100lb cargo bike). Otherwise, you’re spouting misinformed conjecture.

“Easily hitting 30mph” without pedaling is not possible on a regular hybrid or road bike along the Custis with average folks making 250w (Max!).

I’m also calling BS on the whole “more e-bike users = better average cycling behavior”. The second you give some trailboss, CAT6, pathlete an extra 750w, he’s gonna be a d*ck.

I’m laying out my hand here: There are too many people on this board that think that anything faster than them is “30+ mph”. Yet, at the same time, I see the same folks trying to defend e-bike use on the trail where 25+ mph is ACTUALLY EASILY attainable with only (roughly) 200w of rider input on top of 750w+ of e-assist.

I’m trying to get this straight: It’s okay for an e-bike user with limited bike handling skills to “easily” hit speeds in excess of 25mph on a bike/ped trail (because, hay, they’re out riding, at least!), yet the second some dirtbag on a road bike does that under his own power, zooming past other trail users, he’s lambasted for being an “MF-r” or an “A-hole”?

Hello! Hypocrisy!

first wit is not the speed, it is the context. When it is congested, no one should be going that fast. They are an a-hole, whether they are on a road bike, a mountain bike, an ebike, or a jetpack. Pedestrians on both sides, with kids means you slow down.

With my e-bike, I only go fast (20+ mph) when it is safe to do so. That is the thing. If you are complaining about me going fast when I am alone, how do you know that? The thing that gets dangerous is the people going too fast for the conditions, i.e., congestion. Pedestrians are allowed to use the trail. So are kids. So are kids learning to ride.

One more comment, on the day when I way going 20 mph into a 20 mph head wind, the road bike behind me seemed quite happy to draft. Even thanked me at the light….(crossing lee highway.)

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