e-Bikes – Let’s talk

[dasgeh]

Ebikes that have the power but are programmed to meet the FTC regs can do 20mph uphill and on flats.

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[zsionakides]

@dasgeh 163619 wrote:

Ebikes that have the power but are programmed to meet the FTC regs can do 20mph uphill and on flats.

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With pedal assist the rider can go 28mph, which I’ve seen riders do on the MVT and 4MR. This is dangerous and not something a non ebike rider can easily do.

20mph is very fast for riding uphill. If you look at the Rosslyn hill on the Custis trail on Strava (https://www.strava.com/segments/12543956), only 9 out of over 7500 riders have ever averaged 20mph up that hill. Putting ebikes out there means that anyone can spend a couple grand and be faster than basically every rider on the trail, simply by twisting the wrist or flicking a switch.

[dasgeh]

@zsionakides 163620 wrote:

With pedal assist the rider can go 28mph, which I’ve seen riders do on the MVT and 4MR. This is dangerous and not something a non ebike rider can easily do.

20mph is very fast for riding uphill. If you look at the Rosslyn hill on the Custis trail on Strava (https://www.strava.com/segments/12543956), only 9 out of over 7500 riders have ever averaged 20mph up that hill. Putting ebikes out there means that anyone can spend a couple grand and be faster than basically every rider on the trail, simply by twisting the wrist or flicking a switch.

There are a wide variety of ebikes. Plenty can’t go 20mph at all, let alone 28mph, on the flats. There’s a federal law, and acompanying FTC reg, that gives special status (irrelevant in this area) to ebikes that meet certain requirements, including programming the assist to stop helping at 20mph.

There are plenty of others that are programmed to cut off at 28mph and others that have no limit. Again, wide variety

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[DrP]

@dasgeh 163533 wrote:

I ride the Custis daily. Even on “crowded” days. It’s not crowded. I’ve never missed a light, even with the short timing at Lynn.

I am not sure when you are on the trail (I usually get on between 6:45 and 7:15 – earlier in summer, later in winter), but I find the Custis more and more crowded – to the point that it rivals the MVT for the times that I am on that trail later in my ride to work in the south part of the county. Oddly, more and more people are heading westbound in the morning than there used to be. This morning I needed to stop on the downhills of both of the two sisters because a pedestrian was in front of me and cyclists were coming up the hill. And it is a rare day that either multiple people are passing me from behind on the hill going up towards the bridge to now where or there are multiple people on the downhill. The numbers of peds and cyclists all throughout is typically higher than I have seen in recent years.

@zsionakides 163620 wrote:

20mph is very fast for riding uphill. If you look at the Rosslyn hill on the Custis trail on Strava (https://www.strava.com/segments/12543956), only 9 out of over 7500 riders have ever averaged 20mph up that hill. Putting ebikes out there means that anyone can spend a couple grand and be faster than basically every rider on the trail, simply by twisting the wrist or flicking a switch.

This happens to be how I mostly notice the ebikes – they zoom past me going up hill. I find fewer of them are courteous than non-ebike riders, but since only a small fraction of cyclists seem to call their pass, this may be small number of statistics. And most of the non-courteous do not fall into the previously mentioned categories – they are all guys between 30-50 who seem to have more money than brain cells (from what I can tell as they whiz by me). Kind of like those in the expensive fast cars.

[Dewey]

@zsionakides 163620 wrote:

With pedal assist the rider can go 28mph, which I’ve seen riders do on the MVT and 4MR. This is dangerous and not something a non ebike rider can easily do.

20mph is very fast for riding uphill. If you look at the Rosslyn hill on the Custis trail on Strava (https://www.strava.com/segments/12543956), only 9 out of over 7500 riders have ever averaged 20mph up that hill. Putting ebikes out there means that anyone can spend a couple grand and be faster than basically every rider on the trail, simply by twisting the wrist or flicking a switch.

You are talking about the performance of high power/over-volted electric motors likely drawing above the 1,000w Virginia definition of an electric power-assisted bicycle and I agree 20mph is too fast going uphill on the Custis Trail, it’s also 5mph over the trail speed limit, lower powered Class 1 and 2 ebikes typically don’t achieve those velocities uphill. I converted a bicycle with a pedal assist motor, no throttle, I’m not interested in speed only utility cycling and commuting, and I need help pedalling uphill, towing a child trailer, and carrying groceries. The motor while continuously rated at 250w can draw peak power of 648w – this is capable of assisting my pedalling up to 14mph unloaded going uphill from Rosslyn on the Wilson Blvd PBL, with child trailer and groceries I’m usually going 10mph uphill.

The riders zooming past you uphill may or may not know this but in Virginia motor power >1,000w means they are not riding an ebike. Bicycles are not equipped to NHTSA moped safety standards so they don’t have a VIN number and in Virginia it cannot be registered or titled without a VIN number so it likely also can’t be insured or operated on the street. It’s why I advocate for Virginia adopting a California style ebike classification system certified by the manufacturer or distributor with a decal to identify legal ebikes. Class 1 pedal assist and Class 2 throttle ebikes and kit motors are power limited with performance similar to pedal bicycles, Class 3 speed pedelecs provide pedal assistance up to 28mph which is suitable for long distance commuting on the street, in California only Class 1 and 2 ebikes are allowed on the trails.

[consularrider]

@Dewey 163630 wrote:

You are talking about the performance of Class 3 speed pedelecs and high power/over-volted electric motors that turn bicycles into mopeds or motorcycles. There are Class 1 pedal assist and Class 2 throttle ebikes limited to 20mph on the flat. I converted a bicycle with a 250w Class 1 pedal assist motor because I need pedal assistance going uphill and towing a child trailer, I don’t have a throttle, and I average 14mph going uphill from Rosslyn on the Wilson Blvd PBL. I agree 20mph is too fast going uphill on the Custis Trail, it’s also 5mph over the trail speed limit so even were Arlington to permit lower speed <20mph ebikes on the trails there is a need for ebike rider education.

Unless something changed recently, there is no speed limit on the Custis Trail. The MVT and Capital Crescent are the only DC area trails I know of that have a speed limit (yes, 15 mph). YMMV

[huskerdont]

@consularrider 163634 wrote:

Unless something changed recently, there is no speed limit on the Custis Trail. The MVT and Capital Crescent are the only DC area trails I know of that have a speed limit (yes, 15 mph). YMMV

Yes, I was wondering about this. If there is a speed limit on the Custis, there may as well not be since I don’t think it’s posted anywhere.

[zsionakides]

@Dewey 163630 wrote:

You are talking about the performance of Class 3 speed pedelecs and high power/over-volted electric motors that turn bicycles into mopeds or motorcycles and I agree these are not suitable for bike trails/MUPs. But there are also Class 1 pedal assist and Class 2 throttle ebikes limited to 20mph on the flat with performance similar to pedal bicycles. I converted a bicycle with a Class 1 pedal assist motor limited to 20mph on the flat because I need pedal assistance going uphill, towing a child trailer, and carrying groceries. I don’t have a throttle, and the motor is capable of assisting my pedalling up to 14mph unloaded going uphill from Rosslyn on the Wilson Blvd PBL, with child trailer and groceries I’m usually going 10mph uphill. I agree 20mph is too fast going uphill on the Custis Trail, it’s also 5mph over the trail speed limit, lower powered Class 1 and 2 ebikes typically don’t achieve those velocities uphill.

The issue is that the same conditions that allow a class 1/2 ebike on the trail with a heavy trailer, also allow class 3 bikes at 28mph and even class 2 at 20mph with little to no effort needed from the user. 20mph on most parts of the trail is fast and 28mph is very fast even for someone on a road or TT bike. The ebikes allow sustained riding at high speeds and are specifically advertised that way to commuters.

The trail speed limits are meaningless, except as advisory speeds, as they aren’t enforced and are probably not enforceable. Even if the limits were enforced, convictions would be challenging.

[DismalScientist]

@dasgeh 163619 wrote:

FTC regs

I blame the FTC.

Drain the Swamp.

Sorry, it is CPSC. :rolleyes:

[EasyRider]

@zsionakides 163620 wrote:

Putting ebikes out there means that anyone can spend a couple grand and be faster than basically every rider on the trail, simply by twisting the wrist or flicking a switch.

Just wait until they don’t cost a couple grand.

[scoot]

@lordofthemark 163590 wrote:

@dasgeh 163588 wrote:

It seems like we agree on quite a bit:
* we’d be better off if there were a place to bike fast safely separate from where people walk
* we need changes (mostly infrastructure) that will convince faster cyclists (on e- and regular bikes) off of trails, leaving trails to the people walking, jogging, kids riding, slow biking, etc.
* what that changes are depend on the road — maybe PBLs on Lee, Wilson, FFX, maybe wayfinding or streamlined stop-signs on neighborhood streets like Key, 5th St N, etc.

So let’s work on getting this done!

Agreed! To which I would only add, changes other than infra to make riding in the road (in seg infra or taking the lane) more attractive – lower speed limits where appropriate, restrictions on turns where appropriate, better enforcement of traffic laws and education about them, a due care standard relative to vulnerable road users and changes to contributory negligence laws.

One quibble: I’m not sold on the notion that infrastructure (such as PBLs) should be our primary approach. I would argue that serious efforts to secure legal and regulatory improvements (such as these items suggested by lordofthemark) have greater potential to enhance safety more broadly for everyone in the long term. I’d prefer to see an advocacy that focuses more on the latter.

[lordofthemark]

@scoot 163649 wrote:

One quibble: I’m not sold on the notion that infrastructure (such as PBLs) should be our primary approach. I would argue that serious efforts to secure legal and regulatory improvements (such as these items suggested by lordofthemark) have greater potential to enhance safety more broadly for everyone in the long term. I’d prefer to see an advocacy that focuses more on the latter.

I can’t speak for other jurisdictions, but in Alexandria BPAC is now in the process of organizing into three subcommittees – one focused on infrastructure, one on legislation and policy, and one on education and outreach. All are open to non-BPAC members. So if you want to do that kind of advocacy work, you can.

Personally though, I think that the efforts go hand in hand, as it has been shown that infra can both improve safety, and increase the number of riders – which latter directly improves safety, and also increases the constituency for legal and regulatory improvements.

Note also, they can be linked at a very granular level. For example City of Alexandria has lowered speed limits from 35 to 25 on King (where the new buffered bike lanes are) and on parts of Seminary and Quaker. From what I can gather, on the latter, it is taking a very significant LE effort to enforce those limits, on roads that are designed to encourage higher speeds. The road diet on King, OTOH, seems to have more naturally led to more driving within the new speed limit (T&ES will be releasing data on that soon) Now I suppose its possible a road diet could have been implemented without the bike lanes, but I think that can be difficult (parking lanes are not as effective at deterring speeding, IIUC and of course a sidewalk widening is much more costly) and I think would not have been better.

[jnva]

It seems like people are mostly concerned that more ebikes on wod/custis will mean more accidents and less overall safety. I don’t agree with this but it keeps getting mentioned. I wonder if anyone has seen an ebike cause an accident due to high speed? I think it’s just annoying to get passed, especially if you aren’t warned. “There goes another ebike speeding away, he’s going to kill someone. I’m going to write an article in the post and complain about them on the internet” lol.

[hozn]

@jnva 163666 wrote:

It seems like people are mostly concerned that more ebikes on wod/custis will mean more accidents and less overall safety. I don’t agree with this but it keeps getting mentioned. I wonder if anyone has seen an ebike cause an accident due to high speed? I think it’s just annoying to get passed, especially if you aren’t warned. “There goes another ebike speeding away, he’s going to kill someone. I’m going to write an article in the post and complain about them on the internet” lol.

Yeah, I think this probably is more of a feeling than a fact. I have seen a lot of ebikes (of the same ones with regularity) and no accidents. I also haven’t seen any serious non-motor cyclist-on-cyclist accidents on the WOD. I’ve heard a few people (roadies, I guess) talk about not having “earned the speed” and that does fit with my overall experience of this nouveau electronique crowd on the trails (novice cyclists), but there are certainly people riding traditional bicycles, even quickly, that are terrible cyclists too – and not just triathletes!

We did a short trip out to Procida (bay of Naples) recently and it was pretty crazy that almost all the bikes were e-bikes. Made sense; it.was hilly. Kids were chasing each other around on them like motorcycles. No helmets, of course. — No helmets anywhere in Italy that I saw (which is pretty crazy given how the drivers drive). And in Switzerland my casual observation was that about half the folks riding around town are on e-bikes. And there’s no problem​ (at least no obvious one) because people aren’t riding like jackasses. (People can also ride mopeds on the MUPs as far as I could tell; I don’t think there’s much difference, if we’re honest about it.) They’re just going to work casually, in business attire. It’s not a race. This approach to cycling, with nothing to prove, no one to pass, feels completely foreign.

E-bikes are obviously coming. Maybe our attitude to cycling will become more pragmatic as a result. They’re basically a new category of users of the trail systems and it’ll take some getting used to. Certainly when the thousandth person passes you up Rosslyn Hill without exerting any effort, without breaking a sweat, it will be attractive to admit “it’s not a race.” Or if cat6 matters, then at least, “I’m not racing them”.

But of course there’s also an entire athletic (and competitive) world of cycling that doesn’t apply to e-bikes at all.

[Harry Meatmotor]

read between the (anecdotal) lines:

of the 2 regular e-bike commuters I see (almost daily) on the MVT, both wear full face moto- or DH-style helmets; both are running de-limited, bodged together ali-express setups, unburdened by the CPSC.

I, personally, don’t think seeing more of them on the trails makes it safer. But what do I know? I just like to play in traffic and rip around on the weekends with 58 of my closest friends at 25+ mph. Sometimes we fall down; go boom. And then we get to ride in ambulances after that.

I can imagine what the dude-bros in moto helmets will do to other riders when they oooopsie into someone who doesn’t get their jollies rubbing elbows with bikers with numbers pinned to their jersey.

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