[lordofthemark]

My understanding is that based on the data available, biking is A. Safer than driving per hour B. More dangerous than driving per mile. Cause, despite elite riders, and bad traffic, driving is still on average much faster than biking

So if the choice is to go from point A to point B by bike or car, you are safer going by car. If OTOH, the choice is to design a lifestyle where your typical trip is a car trip that takes you half an hour, vs one where where your typical trip is a bike trip that takes you half an hour, the latter is safer. Perhaps its no wonder that places with good walkable/bikeable infrastructure, and close to major employment/activity centers, sell at a premium. To the point that major metro papers write articles about some such places as examples of a “new gilded age”.

And note, its well known that bike/ped exposure data (how many miles/hours people travel by those modes) is inadequate, and efforts are being made to remediate that.

edit: clicking on the link, he said just what I said. Good.

Plus the health effect, which is important. I know a family that lost two members (grandfather/grandson) to an auto accident. But I also lost my own dad to cardiovascular disease, at 72. And then there are the mental health benefits as well.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59040 wrote:

If your response is “well, everybody I know has a car that costs more than that,” well, you’ve been in the DC area too long.

There are lots of SUVs, minivans, luxury sedans, etc sold in places other than the DC area.

There are a lot of families, with two drivers, that feel the need for a third car. “well, what will I do when one is in the shop?”

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 59040 wrote:

? No, of course, not–but it is a car for someone with enough extra money to make a statement, and there are a lot of people in this world who don’t have extra money to make a statement..

there are a lot of people in this world who don’t have the money to buy a latte, or to have a second bathroom in their house, or to send their kids to soccer camp, or to have an HD car stereo. Or you know, to own several different bikes for different possible rides.

Why are things spent for ones own personal pleasure okay, but things spent to make this particular kind of statement obnoxioux? And how does one know its about a statement, and not about actually trying to reduce emissions? Just as I dont know if someone who buys a BMW is doing so for the engineering, or to make statement about their wealth. Whether someone buying a Mcmansion really uses all those rooms, or is trying to make a statement. At least the person making a statement with the Prius, IS lowering their emissions versus driving the same miles with a similar conventionally fueled vehicle.

I DO agree that it does not make sense to give them superior rights to HOV lanes though. I think the problem is not just that vehicles are grandfathered in, but that the special fuel tags are transferable, IIUC.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 59048 wrote:

Right, $6000 more to get an mpg improvement of 16 miles city and 8 miles highway. Assuming equal city and highway driving, the hybrid gets 12 miles to the gallon more. It’s going to take quite awhile to make up for $6k, which is 1500 gallons of gas at $4 per gallon.

12 miles a gallon vs an average of less than 34 for the conventionally fueled car. Lets just say one third. so you save 1500 gallons over the time you would burn 4500. Thats about 150,00 miles.

Plus of course some folk do more than 50% of their miles in “city” driving. so the numbers are better for them. And some people expect the price of gasoline to go over $4 in the near future (of course the latest Va transport bill shifting the cost of building roads from gas taxes to sales taxes changed incentives a bit for those who live in NoVa).

Oh and a dirty little secret. My Civic does NOT get the mileage that is on the sticker. Maybe if I ran it on an EPA test track or whatever it would. That means that the number of miles to get to 1500 gallons is somewhat less than one would expect using the sticker MPG numbers.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 59031 wrote:

My problem with hybrids is that people use them to justify driving more. Driving more has negative externalities beyond emissions. I just saw a great article on the cost of congestion… now where was it?

Not irrational – just as its cheaper to drive our Civic to NYC than if we had a Hummer, which would incent us to take the Bolt Bus – heck it would even make the Acela look cheap, I guess. But is it wise to buy a Hummer to incent oneself to drive less? and to move more directly to Pelzmans law, is it wise to not wear a helmet, to incent oneself to ride more carefully?

BTW, I met Sam Pelzman, and he’s a real nice guy.

[lordofthemark]

“The missing wheel covers, a couple cigarette burns on the interior”

there are Prius drivers who SMOKE?

[lordofthemark]

http://automobiles.honda.com/shop/civics.aspx?kwid=15043480&adgrpid=375486540&ef_id=HeFPoXDnfgwAAFr9:20130724211527:s

a base model Honda Civic Sedan is 18k and change. A Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid is 24k and change.

Thats 6k.

I mean people buy bikes that cost more than 6k, right?

Depending on how much you drive and how you drive, its not out of the question that you can justify the incremental 6k. Especially if you think gas prices are going to increase. and even more if you add a small amount to your personal cost benefit for the emissions difference.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 59004 wrote:

Financing increases the cost, so you save even less. And financing $10K more means a bigger payment, immediately offsetting any monthly gas savings.

look, you either can buy for cash or you can’t. If can you can do the ROI on the cash, and if you can’t you compare the payment including interest (which is low these last few years) to the gas savings. Even for us who dont drive that much and some of it is highway in free flow, it was close enough to want to think about. Its really not as impractical for everyone as folks here are making out.

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 58951 wrote:

Perhaps not wealthy, but able to afford a premium of $10K or so to get a hybrid over a non-hybrid of similar size. And they may think they’re saving a few bucks on gas, but they won’t actually see that savings for several years because of the initial price increase.

but the car price can be financed, so thats also spread over several years. When we got our Civic, we also test drove a Prius. I did the calculations and it didn’t make sense for us (even given a reasonable value for wanting to be more ecofriendly) but for someone who drove more, and most of that in congestion (we do a lot of trips back and forth to family in NYC, which adds miles but most of that we can get could mileage inth Civic despite the occasional back up in the Turnpike) I think it could. So I don’t think its only for wealthy folks, unless you think any new compact sedan is.

[lordofthemark]

@Rogburt 58866 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/jul/24/san-francisco-cyclist-manslaughter

If the light was turning yellow and the crosswalk was full, does that mean all the peds were jaywalking? Or did the court determine that the light was not yellow?

[lordofthemark]

@jabberwocky 58831 wrote:

In my experience, Prius drivers tend to just be terrible. Not generally aggressive, but total brain-stem drivers (the actual brain doesn’t seem to be engaged in any fashion whatsoever). Its obviously not universal; my lovely girlfriend drives a Prius C, and lots of Prius drivers are considerate and good, but they definitely seem to be the make and model that attracts far more than their fair share of idiots.

When I started noticing this pattern several years ago, my working theory was that people drive Priuses to feel good about how green they are, and seeing a cyclist pisses them off because it reminds them that they are still driving cars and burning gas and knocks them right off their nice smug-cloud. After driving my girlfriends Prius a few times, my new theory is that 75% of the info in front of you when driving a Prius is focused on fuel efficiency, and Prius drivers get obsessed with maximizing mileage, so they tend to not want to slow down and re-accelerate for any reason.

I dunno. We recently got a Honda Civic – conventionally fueled, but with the green econ button, and lots of info to keep track of your mpg (part of your dashboard changes color depending on your current fuel economy) and I confess to trying to drive to get the average MPG up – but it does not at all make me oblivious to cyclists (of course cycling and following bike safety issues helps with that). I tend to notice more misbehavior from minivans, but then that may have to do with doing much of my street riding (and walking) in Annandale, where Priuses are scarce on the ground.

I also note that the tire slasher went after Priuses and also minicars. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that whoever it is that has this extreme gripe about these kinds of cars, has little love for cyclists either.

[lordofthemark]

@elbows 58730 wrote:

I saw a group of unlit guys on bikes riding the wrong way going toward the Pentagon on Columbia Pike under 27 last night after dark in Arlington. I imagine they did this because the sidewalk on which they were probably riding is abruptly closed there. I feel like this area is an accident waiting to happen.

The other night on Hummer road in Annandale I saw someone riding without lights after dark, salmoning, and not wearing a helmet, for the trifecta. (yes, I know only two of these three are illegal)

[lordofthemark]

@ShawnoftheDread 58567 wrote:

Good lord, are there four Annandale commuters on one thread? Where’s lordofthemark?

I take the Hummer/Annandale Rd to Cherry to W&OD route outlined above to go to DC. I’ve tried various routes cutting through Lincolnia, Dora Kelly Nature Preserve, and NVCC-Alexandria, but I’ve found that they only save a couple of miles and actually add time and aggravation.

Lord of the mark has a fitness center form he needs to fill out sitting on his desk (this was not the week to bike commute with no shower) and also needs to follow up with the parking office. So he isn’t yet quite a bike commuter beyond the one day – and since he intends to ride only from the Pentagon bus station to the near SouthEast, his input here will not be useful. I will look at the routes, but I don’t think they will entice me away from the express bus and its bike rack, just yet.

[lordofthemark]

“We know its annoying. “They” wouldn’t make any fixes to the input screen. Just put down the color of your bike, or something”

I hope no one in Va has a vanity plate “blue”. Or maybe I should try to fit ClunkerDeptStoreMtnBike in. Or “fred”

[lordofthemark]

The average statistician uses average to refer to the mean.

But the average English speaker uses average to refer to the median or to the mean. Actually the average English speaker probably assumes the median and mean of most populations is identical, until you point out examples of attributes/populations where they are dramatically different.

Note, average can also even more imprecisely mean “typical” or “common”. QED.

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