What kind of bike do I want: commuting all the time edition

[vvill]

@dasgeh 79099 wrote:

Aside from the obvious answer of “test ride a bunch of bikes for a long time” (which I just don’t have time to do, hence why I’m still shopping), is there anything specific I can look for in a new bike? Is there a measurement or 10 I can take from the road bike to compare to geometries online or in person?

And finally, I almost always ride on the hoods on the road bike. If I could position flat bars so that my hands were in the same place, just wrists turned, would I feel basically the same? It seems like some of the components I want work better with flat bars…

Otherwise, I think I know what components I want, and could totally build a bike. I just don’t know how to know whether I’ll love the frame.

Cyclocross/gravel bike! I think this is the best compromise of the factors jabberwocky detailed. One other thing – road bikes tend to have shorter wheelbases which makes them faster handling, but less stability. CX bikes tend to have longer wheelbases than road bikes, but not as long as hybrids.

CX bikes also tend to have taller headtubes, so you will be a little more upright than a road bike used for crit racing (but not as upright as flar bars on a hybrid). And you can always tinker with your fork spacers/stem angle to bring it up a bit more. I have my CX bike stem up so it’s a more relaxed position than my road bike, but if I flipped it and moved it down on the fork, it could be made just about as aggressive.

If you’re interested in hoods/brifters/dropbars, and having disc brakes, it’s also ideal since probably around half, if not more, new model year CX bikes are coming stock with disc brakes now.

For commuting/general paved riding, if you aren’t carrying too much on racks, etc. you can even get a lighter wheelset and the feel of a CX bike won’t be too far off your road bike. Also you can get a smooth rolling wider slick that will be more comfortable than a 23/25mm road tire and roll just about as fast over the distance of a commute.

RE: Wrists turned feeling the same, I’d say no. But I have bad wrists.

In terms of measurements, the most quoted one for road and CX bikes is the effective top tube length.

[mstone]

@jabberwocky 79103 wrote:

2: Rolling resistance: Road tires are skinny and high pressure, which lowers rolling resistance on normal pavement (to a point, at least; the ideal tire for various pavement depends on a lot of factors, but in general road tires will roll easier than what you find on MTB conversions and hybrids).

It’s not the width and the pressure as much as the construction. A high performance road tire will generally be something floppy that you can roll up into a tight cylinder. A durable hybrid tire will have sidewalls that feel like hard plastic. That’s where the major difference is coming from as far as rolling resistance. You can get wide floppy tires and you can get narrow nails, but there’s a general correlation (resulting from purchasing trends and market segmentation) that make it a heck of a lot more common to find narrow tires with thin casings and wide tires with armored casings. But you can buy what you want in almost any size these days. (It’s a shame when people get convinced they need to ride 20c tires pumped to 180psi to go faster. It won’t make them faster, but it will feel terrible.)

[jabberwocky]

@mstone 79110 wrote:

It’s not the width and the pressure as much as the construction. A high performance road tire will generally be something floppy that you can roll up into a tight cylinder. A durable hybrid tire will have sidewalls that feel like hard plastic. That’s where the major difference is coming from as far as rolling resistance. You can get wide floppy tires and you can get narrow nails, but there’s a general correlation (resulting from purchasing trends and market segmentation) that make it a heck of a lot more common to find narrow tires with thin casings and wide tires with armored casings. But you can buy what you want in almost any size these days. (It’s a shame when people get convinced they need to ride 20c tires pumped to 180psi to go faster. It won’t make them faster, but it will feel terrible.)

Right. I originally just typed the first sentence but then decided I should throw that caveat on there. Basically, as it spins, the part of the tire that hits the ground flexes and conforms to the ground. That flexing consumes energy. However, if the tire is too hard, instead of flexing to accommodate minor imperfections in whatever surface it is riding on, it has to move up and down to go over them (so to speak) which consumes a lot of energy. Tire construction plays a big role in how well it rolls as well; higher quality tires use better casings that flex and conform with less energy loss.

mstone is right, it isn’t necessary (and would actually be counterproductive) to get super narrow tires and pump them to some ridiculous pressure. Most tires have an ideal pressure for the rider weight and road surface, and its often lower than you’d think.

All that said, in general, road tires will roll with much less effort than cruiser/hybrid/MTB tires.

[jrenaut]

You might want to try the bar ends that mstone mentions on your current hybrid and see if you like the hand position

[dasgeh]

@jabberwocky 79103 wrote:

Road bikes are fast because of:
1: Aerodynamics: Body position is more low and horizontal, and the bike itself is often more aero. Remember that at ~15mph or so, wind resistance is the primary force acting against you (greater than rolling resistance and friction forces in the drivetrain), so anything you do to lower it will increase speed and decrease required effort to maintain speed.

I had to laugh because I’m not going 15mph+ very often.

That list is helpful, but I definitely feel like on my road bike, I have my legs on top of the pedals more, making it more effective/efficient to pedal. On the various “relaxed position” bikes that we have, I just feel like each pedal stroke doesn’t translate into as much power. And I don’t think that is a function of the weight of the bike or the tires. In other words, I don’t think putting skinny slicks on my hybrid and making it weigh as much as my road bike (by carrying nothing on my hybrid and a load on my road bike) would make them feel the same — I think my hybrid would still feel clunky and slow. Though I guess that’s an experiment I could do.

Assuming I’m right, though, I was hoping there was some measurement I could look at to help me find bikes that would feel the same — seat tube angle, head tube angle, ETT? I’m just a bit lost as to how far off I can go from what’s on my road bike and still feel like I can get the thing up the Rosslyn hill.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 79108 wrote:

I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for. On the hoods, meaning that your palms are basically vertical instead of horizontal? You can’t position flat bars that way, but you can add bar ends to get the same effect. The positioning can end up basically the same as being on the hoods of drop bars. The decision you need to make is whether you’re happy moving your hands from that (your most common) position to brake and shift. If you are, it’ll probably end up being significantly cheaper because drop bar brake/shifters come at a price premium.

Yes, my palms are basically vertical on my road bike. I don’t like having my hands away from my stopping power, but I don’t think that wrist position is the aspect of my current riding style that’s so comfortable — I think it’s the overall shoulder/arm angle and distribution of weight that I like. But I’ve never really tried it — do others (who don’t have bad wrists think that if I could get the flat bars to be in the same place relative to my hips, I could be as happy with flat bars? And could I take a CX frame and build it this way (with flat bars on a long-ish stem)?

[jabberwocky]

@dasgeh 79116 wrote:

That list is helpful, but I definitely feel like on my road bike, I have my legs on top of the pedals more, making it more effective/efficient to pedal. On the various “relaxed position” bikes that we have, I just feel like each pedal stroke doesn’t translate into as much power. And I don’t think that is a function of the weight of the bike or the tires.

Hmmm. I don’t know if that could just be a perception thing (meaning it is the aero/slow tires/weight affecting it and it just feels like pedaling is less efficient), or if it could actually be that your pedaling position is simply not correct on the hybrid. I don’t know what the geometry differences between the bikes are, but that could be something worth looking into.

When you test ride other hybrids and commuters, do they feel similarly slow?

[dasgeh]

@jabberwocky 79123 wrote:

Hmmm. I don’t know if that could just be a perception thing (meaning it is the aero/slow tires/weight affecting it and it just feels like pedaling is less efficient), or if it could actually be that your pedaling position is simply not correct on the hybrid. I don’t know what the geometry differences between the bikes are, but that could be something worth looking into.

When you test ride other hybrids and commuters, do they feel similarly slow?

I’ve pushed my seat as far up and forward on the hybrid as I can – that definitely helped (the bike is just too small for me, which is one reason why I’m shopping and haven’t invested more time into fitting that one). We have a number of other dutch-style bikes, and I definitely feel like my legs are more in front of me than below me, and I have reduced power accordingly.

[hozn]

@dasgeh 79116 wrote:

That list is helpful, but I definitely feel like on my road bike, I have my legs on top of the pedals more, making it more effective/efficient to pedal. On the various “relaxed position” bikes that we have, I just feel like each pedal stroke doesn’t translate into as much power. And I don’t think that is a function of the weight of the bike or the tires. In other words, I don’t think putting skinny slicks on my hybrid and making it weigh as much as my road bike (by carrying nothing on my hybrid and a load on my road bike) would make them feel the same — I think my hybrid would still feel clunky and slow. Though I guess that’s an experiment I could do.

Assuming I’m right, though, I was hoping there was some measurement I could look at to help me find bikes that would feel the same — seat tube angle, head tube angle, ETT? I’m just a bit lost as to how far off I can go from what’s on my road bike and still feel like I can get the thing up the Rosslyn hill.

Yes, you can definitely approach this problem with a set of measurements and know essentially how a bike will feel without riding it. The measurements to consider for the bike *fit*:
– How far is the tip of your saddle behind the center of your bottom bracket / crankset axle. If your road bike has you further forward, that could be explaning the fact that you feel more “on top” of the pedals. Obviously seat tube angle is relevant to that distance, but in reality the relationship to bottom bracket is what matters; you might just need to get there in more creative ways.
– Distance from tip of your saddle to your bars. On the frame this is a factor of effective top-tube length + head tube length. You can’t just look at ETT since taller head tubes effectively shorten the reach. In terms of the overall bike setup this measurement also takes into consideration spacers/stem stack height, stem length, etc.
– Difference between seat height and bar height. More spacers can bring your bars up, but you also need longer stems then to preserve the same reach.
– (There might be something I’m forgetting, but those the key ones that spring to mind.)

Comparing the road bike to the hybrid won’t be trivial since you’ll want to account for the position of your hands on the hoods (not just distance to bar). Also, the intent of those bikes is just very different; the idea of a hybrid setup so you’d be in road-bike position seems a bit silly.

In terms of how a bike *rides* there are lots of factors, but headtube angle is important (how twitchy) along with fork rake, chainstay length (and overall length), and then the more subtle things like frame materials.

Also, you may wish to consider getting a bike-agnostic fitting (I did this recently at Sportfit Lab out here in Herndon), which will leave you with a set of dimensions in space and example stack & reach numbers that let you shop for the frame that will fit you the best.

I would vote for the brifters over the bar ends for the reason you identified about wanting to have your hands near the brakes (or the gears). You also gain additional positions (e.g. the drops).

Finally, I will echo vvill’s sentiments (I think I usually agree with him) that the gravel grinder or cx bike is probably the most versatile — can really be made to be a road bike or a relaxed geometry commuter or obviously a gravel grinder. I have mine setup quite relaxed for the commute, but have had it in configurations that essentially matched my road bike geometry. Really the gravel grinders are a great choice for versatility because they tend to have big tire clearance. I think they generally have slacker head tube angles too, though, which will make them a little less responsive in turns (twitchy) than a road bike (I assume the motivation there has to do with steering in gravel?). While I do love having different geometry setups on my road vs. commuter (and of course mtb), I do tend to keep the seat the same distance behind the bottom bracket (i.e. my knee in same position relative to pedal spindle).

[hozn]

@hozn 79125 wrote:

– How far is the tip of your saddle behind the center of your bottom bracket / crankset axle. If your road bike has you further forward, that could be explaning the fact that you feel more “on top” of the pedals. Obviously seat tube angle is relevant to that distance, but in reality the relationship to bottom bracket is what matters; you might just need to get there in more creative ways.

BTW, I use a plumb bob to find this measurement, but a simpler trick is just to put your bike in a door way, line up the saddle tip with the edge of door frame and then measure from there to the middle of bb (the center of bolt in crankarm).

You can also use online fit calculators like http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp that should be able to give you the optimum saddle setback to get your knee over the pedal spindle. (Not everyone agrees that’s optimum, but it’s a good place to start. It definitely feels optimum for me.)

[dasgeh]

@hozn 79125 wrote:

Also, you may wish to consider getting a bike-agnostic fitting (I did this recently at Sportfit Lab out here in Herndon), which will leave you with a set of dimensions in space and example stack & reach numbers that let you shop for the frame that will fit you the best.

I would vote for the brifters over the bar ends for the reason you identified about wanting to have your hands near the brakes (or the gears). You also gain additional positions (e.g. the drops).

Hugely helpful. Thanks. 2 questions:
1) I got a bike agnostic fitting ~ 5 years ago. Should I expect the ideal fit to change (enough to warrant a new fitting) in 5 years? What if I’ve had 2 kids in those 5 years (wow, that sounds dramatic)?
2) What are your thoughts on flat bars? Could I build up a CX frame with flat bars and (cheaper) flat bar hydraulic brakes?

Thanks to all of yall. I’m bummed that I can’t shop more in person (i.e. ride more), but at least I have yall!

[jnva]

@jabberwocky 77955 wrote:

Discs are awesome. I’ve had two BB7

I’ve never heard the “pulling wheels out of dropouts” thing before. Sounds urban-legendish.

Same here, I have bb7 and never had a problem, although once I did notice that the skewer rotated a little once. Tightening it as much as you can resolves that, I’ve never had them move since tightening up…

[mstone]

@dasgeh 79119 wrote:

Yes, my palms are basically vertical on my road bike. I don’t like having my hands away from my stopping power, but I don’t think that wrist position is the aspect of my current riding style that’s so comfortable — I think it’s the overall shoulder/arm angle and distribution of weight that I like. But I’ve never really tried it — do others (who don’t have bad wrists think that if I could get the flat bars to be in the same place relative to my hips, I could be as happy with flat bars? And could I take a CX frame and build it this way (with flat bars on a long-ish stem)?

Oh, you meant body position rather than hand position. Yes, there are road bikes with flat bars that have similar body positioning to drop bar bikes. As you supposed, the key is to just get everything in the same relative alignment; the shape of the bars isn’t relevant.

[hozn]

@dasgeh 79127 wrote:

Hugely helpful. Thanks. 2 questions:
1) I got a bike agnostic fitting ~ 5 years ago. Should I expect the ideal fit to change (enough to warrant a new fitting) in 5 years? What if I’ve had 2 kids in those 5 years (wow, that sounds dramatic)?
2) What are your thoughts on flat bars? Could I build up a CX frame with flat bars and (cheaper) flat bar hydraulic brakes?

Thanks to all of yall. I’m bummed that I can’t shop more in person (i.e. ride more), but at least I have yall!

(1) 2 kids is huge! I really don’t know wrt to fit. Also fit will be a bit different for road vs. the commuter. But you could ensure one of your bikes matches that original fit and then see if it still feels comfortable (or as comfortable as you wanted it to feel back then). I suspect it won’t be exactly the same, since there is a large component of core strength and flexibility that factors in.

(2) I don’t really have any thoughts on flat bars. I like them on my mountain bike, but I think I have come around to the forum consensus that drop bars offer more potential for comfort. That said, I think the folks that ride the greatest distances on these boards use hybrids, so I can’t knock it. I wouldn’t bother with hydraulic brakes, though, but I’m perhaps a bit retro-grouchy in that regard. From my optic they provide a little bit of improved feel (mechanicals with good/expensive housing can feel almost as good) and a little bit less routine adjustment at the cost of being more expensive, more difficult to maintain/work with (e.g. bleeding), decreased braking in cold weather (probably depends on what is inside the tubes), and limits/determines other aspects of the cockpit (as you’re noting). I am sure that I will eventually switch over to hydros, but I will do it to save weight and because it’s becoming standard (e.g. the new Shimano setup) rather than for any deficiency I have experienced with mechanicals. And I’m sure I’ll appreciate them when I do. A good compromise is the Hy/Rd brakes from TRP which offer the advantages of hydros without limiting your bar options: http://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php?productid=1198&catid=206&subcat=0

[Phatboing]

@dasgeh 79127 wrote:

2) What are your thoughts on flat bars? Could I build up a CX frame with flat bars and (cheaper) flat bar hydraulic brakes?

Thanks to all of yall. I’m bummed that I can’t shop more in person (i.e. ride more), but at least I have yall!

I haven’t used flat bars in a while, but I found them uncomfortable for longer rides. I’ve since settled on swept-back handlebars. I’ve Salsa Woodchippers on the Fargo and briefly on the Pompino – I use em in the drops, and that sweep puts my hands in a wonderfully stress-free position. Ditto the FME bar I have on the Troll, which has the added advantage of being able to take flat-bar hardware, so if it turns out to be horrible, I can swap out the bar without having to change levers.

[Author]

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