What kind of bike do I want: commuting all the time edition

[Greenbelt]

@culimerc 77913 wrote:

Braze-ons for racks ??

According the manufacturer propaganda, I think so, but I haven’t ridden this one.

“Over the barriers, through the mud, to the podium we go. On a Supernova of course. The carbon fiber Team and Elite versions of this perennial CX winner are guaranteed to have you reigning in the wet and muddy stuff. Then there’s our aluminum Nova Pro, Race and Sport, possibly some of the most versatile bikes we’ve ever built. They’re as ready for Monday morning’s asphalt commute as they were at the local gravel race last Saturday. And they’re just as ready to be loaded up with panniers for next month’s adventure tour.”

[Phatboing]

@Greenbelt 77914 wrote:

According the manufacturer propaganda, I think so, but I haven’t ridden this one.

“Over the barriers, through the mud, to the podium we go. On a Supernova of course. The carbon fiber Team and Elite versions of this perennial CX winner are guaranteed to have you reigning in the wet and muddy stuff. Then there’s our aluminum Nova Pro, Race and Sport, possibly some of the most versatile bikes we’ve ever built. They’re as ready for Monday morning’s asphalt commute as they were at the local gravel race last Saturday. And they’re just as ready to be loaded up with panniers for next month’s adventure tour.”

Even if there aren’t any braze-ons, this exists: http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/products/luggage-and-bags/bike-bags-and-racks/racks/thule-pack-n-pedal-tour-rack-_-pp_100016

(and is rather nice)

[peterw_diy]

Re: Straggler: disc brakes tend to pull wheels out of forks & frames. Surly’s frames seem especially vulnerable, with even happy Disc Trucker and Straggler owners reporting wheel slippage if they don’t get the QRs really tight. Oh, yeah, disc brakes also tend to loosen QRs: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/ All Surly’s forks have ends that open the wrong way for disc brakes, and Straggler’s funky rear dropout means when the wheel is in the “vertical” part of the dropout, the skewer seems to have about 2/3 as much frame to hold onto as with a real vertical dropout. Salsa’s frames look much better IMO.

As for road hydraulics, note that SRAM has recalled all of its units (http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/SRAM-Recalls-Hydraulic-Bicycle-Brakes/). They hope to have new rideable gear in a couple months: http://sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall.com/qa-communication-february-6-2014/

[vvill]

Spot is a bit of a “boutique” brand so they have less sales volume and probably need higher prices/margins to stay afloat. I kind of regret not ever having test ridden the last model of the Spot SSCX belt drive (the Spot Mod Disc – it was made of one of the nice, light steels). I visited Portland OR last year and happened to ride right by the Joe bike shop, and one of the staff came by on that very bike. I chatted with him for a couple minutes but I had no time left to even pop into the store, as I had to get back. I noticed a few months ago they were clearing their remaining stock of those for 50% off, but they didn’t have my size But I digress…

Raleigh is a much larger company and even have different models/lines on the other side of the Atlantic. Not as big as Giant or Trek but much bigger than Spot. So they’ll have wider distribution, higher sales volumes, and lower margins. I think the aluminum Acme was one of Spot’s popular models in previous years, and the new Wazee is essentially a steel Acme with a cool paintjob; probably heavier though. The Misceo 4.0 is pretty similar to the Acme, just a fair bit cheaper. The Acme does have a carbon fork which would explain some of the higher cost – it’ll be lighter than the CroMo fork on the Misceo 4.0. It has a chain guard too, although that’s pretty minor. The Misceo 3.0 is by far the cheapest since it’s not an IGH nor belt-drive: it’s a fairly standard/reliable commuter bike with regular derailleurs.

I wouldn’t worry about hydraulic disc brakes for drop bars too much. The technology is still maturing, and their time will come, but in the meantime mechanical disc brakes work fine, especially for commutes: their superiority over rim brakes on a wet day is the main benefit. If you want disc brakes, get a bike with disc brakes. It will have disc brake mounts in the frame and fork, the 135mm spacing in the rear, and the correct wheels. Switching to hydraulics can be done as a future upgrade if you really feel it’s necessary.

There are some caveats with disc brakes on road/dropbar bikes but again for commuting purposes I don’t think any of them are even close to deal breakers. Quick-release levers with disc brakes haven’t been an issue for me (and I’ve had three bikes with disc brakes and QR levers), although I do want to switch to a front through-axle on my CX bike in the future – it doesn’t take a big out-of-saddle effort to make the front rotor rub on the brake pad.

Which bike do you want? Keep on test riding the ones you can. Ride steel vs aluminum. Try an IGH and belt drive. Try disc brakes vs rim brakes on drop bars. Ride a few miles at least on your test rides. Climb, descend, sprint, spin, bunny hop, etc. I probably wouldn’t buy a bike online (especially one that’s >$2k) if you’re not sure about what you want. There’s no substitute for a test ride.

@mstone 77898 wrote:

The difference mostly will come down to the hydraulics needing less maintenance and the mechanicals being easier to maintain. (Just like the belt vs chain.)

You mean hydraulics needing more maintenance right?

[Phatboing]

@peterw_diy 77935 wrote:

Re: Straggler: disc brakes tend to pull wheels out of forks & frames. Surly’s frames seem especially vulnerable, with even happy Disc Trucker and Straggler owners reporting wheel slippage if they don’t get the QRs really tight. Oh, yeah, disc brakes also tend to loosen QRs: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/ All Surly’s forks have ends that open the wrong way for disc brakes, and Straggler’s funky rear dropout means when the wheel is in the “vertical” part of the dropout, the skewer seems to have about 2/3 as much frame to hold onto as with a real vertical dropout. Salsa’s frames look much better IMO.

Huh. I have about eleventy thousand questions about this. It may warrant a thread of its own.

[dasgeh]

Thank you so, so much.

@vvill 77940 wrote:

You mean hydraulics needing more maintenance right?

On this, I think mstone meant that with hydraulics and belt, you’ll need to tend to it less often, but when you have to tend to it, it’s more of a pain.

[mstone]

@vvill 77940 wrote:

You mean hydraulics needing more maintenance right?

The hydraulics typically have self centering pads and don’t need a whole lot done until overhaul time. (At which point the oil & bleeding are a pain.) Mechanicals usually have one fixed and one moving pad and require more fiddling for good performance and minimal noise. But those are fairly easy adjustments.

[hozn]

Yeah, I haven’t had any problems with disc brakes and forks angled the wrong way or QR skewers coming loose. I have pulled out a rear wheel, but switched to hex bolt skewers and haven’t had that happen since. Not all QR skewers are created equal and you can switch to 9/10mm thru-bolts (with compatible wheels) for increased stiffness.

Disc brakes can be loud [when wet]. And they can require creativity (or simply spacers) with fender/rack mounting. But they are the best way to stop a bicycle and that is a good reason to choose them. All of my bikes (mtb, cx/commuter, and now road) use disc brakes, so obviously I am a fan.

I am very impressed with the new TRP Spyre dual-piston brakes, but my bb7s have served well on my commuter. Someday I am sure I will put hydros on my on one or all of my bikes but with the right cable housing mechanical disc brakes can feel very similar.

[jabberwocky]

Discs are awesome. I’ve had two BB7 equipped cross bikes and liked them both, and have hydraulic discs on all my mountainbikes.

I’ve never heard the “pulling wheels out of dropouts” thing before. Sounds urban-legendish. Discs are fairly new in the road world, but completely proven technology in the MTB realm (seriously, you have to go super low-end to even find a MTB with rim brakes these days). I started MTBing in 2004 and have never owned a MTB with anything except discs, and can’t remember ever having a wheel even shift in a dropout due to braking forces.

@dasgeh 77944 wrote:

On this, I think mstone meant that with hydraulics and belt, you’ll need to tend to it less often, but when you have to tend to it, it’s more of a pain.

I’ve been running hydraulic discs for many years on mountain bikes, and think the whole maintenance thing is way overstated. Bleeding modern brakes is very simple, and only needs to be done every few years. The extra power, amazing lever feel and (most importantly) not having to constantly adjust pads for optimum performance is totally worth it. That said, hydraulic road discs are super new and super expensive, so unless you are going to run flat bars (and run MTB brakes) you’re probably stuck with mechanicals.

[Phatboing]

@jabberwocky 77955 wrote:

I’ve never heard the “pulling wheels out of dropouts” thing before. Sounds urban-legendish.

That link sent me into an internet vortex of doom, and after all of that, the big lessons are (a) make sure your QR skewers are not crap, and (b) keep em tight.

Back on topic:
The BB7s on my Troll honk like dying geese when I get them even slightly wet. I can still stop on a dime, but I sound like a clown car while doing so. So one more vote for discs!

Really back on topic:
If you want to build a custom bike, you could start with a Pompetamine, put an IGH, disc brakes, trekking bars (why not), etc.

[dasgeh]

So I’m still shopping, but I have a more fundamental question for the illuminati:

I rode my road bike (Raleigh R500) today for the first time in far too long. It is so fast. It’s a joy to ride, and I don’t really mind hills.
In comparison, my hybrid (Raleigh Detour Deluxe) feels like a stone. After a few miles, it’s a chore. I don’t look forward to riding flats, and I dread hills.
But, on my hybrid, I’m able to look around and put a foot down easier, and it feels more stable, even when the rear rack is loaded.

Aside from the obvious answer of “test ride a bunch of bikes for a long time” (which I just don’t have time to do, hence why I’m still shopping), is there anything specific I can look for in a new bike? Is there a measurement or 10 I can take from the road bike to compare to geometries online or in person?

And finally, I almost always ride on the hoods on the road bike. If I could position flat bars so that my hands were in the same place, just wrists turned, would I feel basically the same? It seems like some of the components I want work better with flat bars…

Otherwise, I think I know what components I want, and could totally build a bike. I just don’t know how to know whether I’ll love the frame.

[jabberwocky]

Road bikes are fast because of:
1: Aerodynamics: Body position is more low and horizontal, and the bike itself is often more aero. Remember that at ~15mph or so, wind resistance is the primary force acting against you (greater than rolling resistance and friction forces in the drivetrain), so anything you do to lower it will increase speed and decrease required effort to maintain speed.
2: Rolling resistance: Road tires are skinny and high pressure, which lowers rolling resistance on normal pavement (to a point, at least; the ideal tire for various pavement depends on a lot of factors, but in general road tires will roll easier than what you find on MTB conversions and hybrids).
3: Weight: The bikes are lighter in general, which is a great help (especially when it comes to climbing) and rotating parts are lighter, which greatly aids acceleration.

If you are looking for a commuter that maintains the feel of a road bike as much as possible, you want to prioritize those three things. List the things you want (rack mounts, for example) and then look for compatible bikes that allow a road-ish body position, can take road tires, and is as light as possible.

Obviously, these are trade-offs. The upright position of a hybrid does allow you to look around easier, feels more stable, etc. But its also putting your upper body into a poor aero position, which will hurt speed. You need to decide what you prefer, or figure out where in the middle you are happiest. Road tires roll faster, but they don’t absorb bumps well and are not all that comfortable. Etc.

No such thing as a free lunch.

[jrenaut]

@jabberwocky 79103 wrote:

No such thing as a free lunch.

This is half the basis for the N+1 rule. The other half is that bikes are awesome.

[mstone]

@dasgeh 79099 wrote:

Aside from the obvious answer of “test ride a bunch of bikes for a long time” (which I just don’t have time to do, hence why I’m still shopping), is there anything specific I can look for in a new bike? Is there a measurement or 10 I can take from the road bike to compare to geometries online or in person? [/quote]

yes, it’s easy to compare geometries. but there’s a fundamental tension between stability/carrying and twitchiness/maneuvering and the only way to find out what specific tradeoff works for you is…

you may also get a significantly improved ride just changing the tires on the hybrid–they often come with god-awful boat anchors. (there’s a lot more to getting the ride you want than just the frame geometry.)

Quote:

And finally, I almost always ride on the hoods on the road bike. If I could position flat bars so that my hands were in the same place, just wrists turned, would I feel basically the same? It seems like some of the components I want work better with flat bars…

I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for. On the hoods, meaning that your palms are basically vertical instead of horizontal? You can’t position flat bars that way, but you can add bar ends to get the same effect. The positioning can end up basically the same as being on the hoods of drop bars. The decision you need to make is whether you’re happy moving your hands from that (your most common) position to brake and shift. If you are, it’ll probably end up being significantly cheaper because drop bar brake/shifters come at a price premium.

[vvill]

@dasgeh 79099 wrote:

Aside from the obvious answer of “test ride a bunch of bikes for a long time” (which I just don’t have time to do, hence why I’m still shopping), is there anything specific I can look for in a new bike? Is there a measurement or 10 I can take from the road bike to compare to geometries online or in person?

And finally, I almost always ride on the hoods on the road bike. If I could position flat bars so that my hands were in the same place, just wrists turned, would I feel basically the same? It seems like some of the components I want work better with flat bars…

Otherwise, I think I know what components I want, and could totally build a bike. I just don’t know how to know whether I’ll love the frame.

Cyclocross/gravel bike! I think this is the best compromise of the factors jabberwocky detailed. One other thing – road bikes tend to have shorter wheelbases which makes them faster handling, but less stability. CX bikes tend to have longer wheelbases than road bikes, but not as long as hybrids.

CX bikes also tend to have taller headtubes, so you will be a little more upright than a road bike used for crit racing (but not as upright as flar bars on a hybrid). And you can always tinker with your fork spacers/stem angle to bring it up a bit more. I have my CX bike stem up so it’s a more relaxed position than my road bike, but if I flipped it and moved it down on the fork, it could be made just about as aggressive.

If you’re interested in hoods/brifters/dropbars, and having disc brakes, it’s also ideal since probably around half, if not more, new model year CX bikes are coming stock with disc brakes now.

For commuting/general paved riding, if you aren’t carrying too much on racks, etc. you can even get a lighter wheelset and the feel of a CX bike won’t be too far off your road bike. Also you can get a smooth rolling wider slick that will be more comfortable than a 23/25mm road tire and roll just about as fast over the distance of a commute.

RE: Wrists turned feeling the same, I’d say no. But I have bad wrists.

In terms of measurements, the most quoted one for road and CX bikes is the effective top tube length.

[Author]

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