Haines Point lunchtime riders etiquette

[dasgeh]

@83(b) 96092 wrote:

I think it’s crucial to note that the only rider he tracked down and berated was also the specific rider who hit him and kept rolling. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a rider (especially one who isn’t familiar with pack cycling) to focus his anger on the individual who struck him, rather than viewing the whole group as equally culpable. That’s what makes me unwilling to jump immediately on the misogyny bandwagon. But I also can’t watch the videos at work, so I’m missing the particulars of what the OP said and how he said it. So I’m totally open to the possibility that I’m missing color that clearly swings my view toward your side of the argument. Facts, as they say, matter.

In any event, I still object to watering down the term mansplaining.

I should have said earlier: I completely agree with your earlier [implied] point that this doesn’t rise to the level of danger posed by the actions of far too many drivers in this area every day.

All that said, I took Mantadiver (OP)’s posts in total to say that he was equally peeved by all the racers. The video comes across to me as a guying trying to “put a woman in her place”.

[baiskeli]

@gtmandsager 96103 wrote:

Which had the exact same effect, none, as the dudes blowing by at 20+ mph through the corner without pausing to see if he was going straight. How many of them showed the OP respect or demonstrated remorse?

No effect?

So if someone actually made contact with you while you’re riding your bike in a crowd of people taking unsafe risks, and just rode off and didn’t even acknowledge their transgression, you’d blow it off because you didn’t actually fall down?

There is an huge difference between blowing past someone and actually HITTING them. I think any reasonable person would make such a distinction.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 96104 wrote:

I should have said earlier: I completely agree with your earlier [implied] point that this doesn’t rise to the level of danger posed by the actions of far too many drivers in this area every day.

All that said, I took Mantadiver (OP)’s posts in total to say that he was equally peeved by all the racers. The video comes across to me as a guying trying to “put a woman in her place”.

You really think he would have acted any differently if a man had hit him instead?

[gtmandsager]

@baiskeli 96105 wrote:

No effect?

None. Other than his road rage, I guess. Sore vocal cords? This thread? What do you have?

@baiskeli 96105 wrote:

So if someone actually made contact with you while you’re riding your bike in a crowd of people taking unsafe risks, and just rode off and didn’t even acknowledge their transgression, you’d blow it off because you didn’t actually fall down?

Many times. Lets also remember that she says she did apologize and if she got squeezed by the guy in the Australia jersey it’s not clear that she’s the transgressor. Which is why I choose not to yell.

@baiskeli 96105 wrote:

There is an huge difference between blowing past someone and actually HITTING them. I think any reasonable person would make such a distinction.

You’ve never had your front wheel taken out by someone chopping a corner have you? I think the riding in video #2 is far more dangerous.

[baiskeli]

@gtmandsager 96108 wrote:

None. Other than his road rage, I guess. Sore vocal cords? This thread? What do you have?

So you’re saying that if someone bumped you while you’re on your bike, you wouldn’t mind one bit?

Many times.

Well, perhaps you’re an experienced group rider. Many of us, including the OP, are not, and we don’t expect to be hit. I think a majority of cyclists out there are the same way. Anyone who thinks they can do a group ride and hit a stranger who isn’t in the group and expect them not to care like a group member wouldn’t care should reconsider. Not everyone is a group rider or a fast rider. If you hit a stranger on a bike who isn’t in your group and don’t even acknowledge it, be prepared for anger.

[Crickey7]

@Drewdane 96085 wrote:

I was considering starting to ride at Hains Point during my lunch hour, but after reading this thread I think I’ll pass.

Funny, I feel the same way about buying a video camera after reading this thread.

[jabberwocky]

Once again, I’m seriously surprised by people hand waving away inconsiderate, dangerous behavior because something something racing. For those who aren’t aware, Haines isn’t a goddamn racetrack! It’s a public park! I dont give a crap what flies as acceptable behavior in a race, because, despite what these groups of dickheads seem to think, Haines isn’t a goddam race!

If someone clipped me and just kept going, I’d be chasing them down if I could, and reporting a hit and run accident to boot. There is no planet where behavior like that is acceptable.

[dasgeh]

@baiskeli 96110 wrote:

Well, perhaps you’re an experienced group rider. Many of us, including the OP, are not, and we don’t expect to be hit. I think a majority of cyclists out there are the same way. Anyone who thinks they can do a group ride and hit a stranger who isn’t in the group and expect them not to care like a group member wouldn’t care should reconsider. Not everyone is a group rider or a fast rider. If you hit a stranger on a bike who isn’t in your group and don’t even acknowledge it, be prepared for anger.

Do you think it’s ever ok to chase people down, pulling dangerous moves in the process, in order to berate them about their, in your opinion, inadequate apology? Again, he didn’t chase the woman down to talk to her about her riding, just the fact that he didn’t hear/like her apology.

You seem to be saying that yes, there are situations where such behavior is acceptable, and this is one of those situations. You act like you have seen the “hit”, which the OP also calls a “bump”, and is not clear from the video. Honestly, it’s not clear whether it was handlebar to handlebar, or hand to handlebar or hip to handlebar or something else. I’ll take the OP’s word that he was bumped. And I won’t excuse it. BUT I can see exactly what the OP does and says, and it was out of line.

@jabberwocky 96113 wrote:

Once again, I’m seriously surprised by people hand waving away inconsiderate, dangerous behavior because something something racing. For those who aren’t aware, Haines isn’t a goddamn racetrack! It’s a public park! I dont give a crap what flies as acceptable behavior in a race, because, despite what these groups of dickheads seem to think, Haines isn’t a goddam race!

If someone clipped me and just kept going, I’d be chasing them down if I could, and reporting a hit and run accident to boot. There is no planet where behavior like that is acceptable.

I don’t see anyone waving away the racers’ behavior. I see people (including me) saying that the OP’s behavior is also unacceptable, and saying that there are ways to be safer at HP. I think chasing down people in such situations rarely ends well: it may involving more dangerous riding, it may start a fight. And seriously, you would chase someone down because their apology wasn’t good enough? Or you would explain that they were riding dangerously?

[jabberwocky]

@dasgeh 96116 wrote:

I don’t see anyone waving away the racers’ behavior. I see people (including me) saying that the OP’s behavior is also unacceptable, and saying that there are ways to be safer at HP. I think chasing down people in such situations rarely ends well: it may involving more dangerous riding, it may start a fight. And seriously, you would chase someone down because their apology wasn’t good enough? Or you would explain that they were riding dangerously?

Honestly, if someone pulled that shit on me, I’d chase them down and put them into the pavement if I could. Dont care if it’s a guy or a girl, and if it starts a fight so be it. I’m not dirt. I don’t take inconsiderate shit like that with a smile.

[Mantadiver]

I almost wish I never posted this thread. Some truly bizarre responses and some reasonable ones. The bottom line is that someone hit me on my handlebars (no, not bumped me like someone who changed my words). It was shocking and as I said before because of the angle of the video you really cannot tell how severe it was. But it was bad and I very easily could have gone down. That person did not say anything to me and rode off. I did not ride dangerously to catch up to the person, you were not there. I didn’t cut anyone off, I just wanted the person to at least apologize. The rider did not gesture or apologize as they said in the video. If they did, they didn’t do it to me. If it was a man I would have done the same. It’s so ridiculous to suggest the I am being sexist, or doing so because she was a woman. Someone said I didn’t stop at the stop sign either. Would you if you had a bunch of riders swarming you. That was the same group that hit me. I really didn’t have a lot of confidence in their ability to pass me safely. There are some really good posters on this board. But there seem to be some who probably saw their own behavior in the video and wanted to justify it.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 96116 wrote:

Do you think it’s ever ok to chase people down, pulling dangerous moves in the process, in order to berate them about their, in your opinion, inadequate apology?

I don’t know. I do know that there’s no evidence that he would have done anything different if the person he was angry with was a man.

You seem to be saying that yes, there are situations where such behavior is acceptable, and this is one of those situations. You act like you have seen the “hit”, which the OP also calls a “bump”, and is not clear from the video. Honestly, it’s not clear whether it was handlebar to handlebar, or hand to handlebar or hip to handlebar or something else. I’ll take the OP’s word that he was bumped. And I won’t excuse it. BUT I can see exactly what the OP does and says, and it was out of line.

But it would be out of line whether he did it to a man or a woman, right?

I don’t see anyone waving away the racers’ behavior.

Please review the thread that leads up to post #50.

I see people (including me) saying that the OP’s behavior is also unacceptable, and saying that there are ways to be safer at HP. I think chasing down people in such situations rarely ends well: it may involving more dangerous riding, it may start a fight.

Do they have to actually knock you over before you chase them down?

And seriously, you would chase someone down because their apology wasn’t good enough? Or you would explain that they were riding dangerously?

He didn’t hear an apology, so it’s not fair to say it “wasn’t good enough” – it was, to him, non-existent at the time. And I don’t see how there’s a big difference between saying “you did something wrong (by riding dangerously)” and “you should apologize.” If he had been knocked down, I doubt anyone would care about the difference.

[baiskeli]

@jabberwocky 96119 wrote:

Honestly, if someone pulled that shit on me, I’d chase them down and put them into the pavement if I could. Dont care if it’s a guy or a girl, and if it starts a fight so be it. I’m not dirt. I don’t take inconsiderate shit like that with a smile.

Dickie witnessed a speeding jerk almost run over my daughter on the trail last week and tried to chase him down. I wish I could find the guy.

[baiskeli]

Okay, well, the weekend is here so we can all take deep breaths and exhale. Let’s stipulate that if you bump a total stranger who is a recreational rider not in your group while you are riding rather aggressively, even it doesn’t cause a crash, they’ll probably be perturbed, and that not acknowledging the transgression will multiply the offense, and that both should probably therefore be considered a violation of etiquette.

[AFHokie]

I realize I’m ‘poking the bear’ but:

Why chase down a person who’s doing laps? Just stop and wait; they’re coming around again…

[PotomacCyclist]

@Mantadiver 96120 wrote:

I almost wish I never posted this thread. Some truly bizarre responses and some reasonable ones. The bottom line is that someone hit me on my handlebars (no, not bumped me like someone who changed my words). It was shocking and as I said before because of the angle of the video you really cannot tell how severe it was. But it was bad and I very easily could have gone down. That person did not say anything to me and rode off. I did not ride dangerously to catch up to the person, you were not there. I didn’t cut anyone off, I just wanted the person to at least apologize. The rider did not gesture or apologize as they said in the video. If they did, they didn’t do it to me. If it was a man I would have done the same. It’s so ridiculous to suggest the I am being sexist, or doing so because she was a woman. Someone said I didn’t stop at the stop sign either. Would you if you had a bunch of riders swarming you. That was the same group that hit me. I really didn’t have a lot of confidence in their ability to pass me safely. There are some really good posters on this board. But there seem to be some who probably saw their own behavior in the video and wanted to justify it.

Not everyone who disagrees with some of your statements and actions is justifying bad behavior, their own or someone else’s. I have actually been in a similar situation as you, with a large and fast group overtaking me once as I was riding at Hains Point. They didn’t knock me over, but they nearly did. They also forced me to speed up about 5 mph because it was impossible for me to fall back. (They surrounded me from the front, both sides and from the rear, or at least I thought they did. I didn’t stop to find out.) I also said in my first post that I believe the woman was at fault, but I’m not going to spend my weekend analyzing every frame of the video (which doesn’t even show everything) to sort it all out.

What I don’t agree with is the idea that rage is OK just because someone is wronged. It sure looked as though a few of the non-offending riders seemed concerned that you were going to engage in violent behavior. (Given some of the comments in this thread, that would be a reasonable expectation in the face of a random stranger shouting angrily.) This thread is a chance to look at the events with some perspective, not in the heat of the moment. (I do understand that anger and rage does last well beyond the immediate moments. I still get angry myself about a former boss who was violent, in a white-collar workplace, even though it took place years ago.)

Because someone is wronged, they have a free hand to go and take other people down, as some are proclaiming? I don’t think so. I’ve posted several times on the forum about people on the Mt. Vernon Trail who pass aggressively, including those who pass when there is a lot of traffic in both directions and they force people on the other side of the yellow line to veer off to the side of the trail (nearly off the trail) to avoid a collision. Should I reach out and take that person down by shoving them from the side? That would cause a crash, but in crowded conditions, I would likely cause others to crash as well. That’s what I have a problem with, the idea that uncontrolled rage is the appropriate response. We are humans and fallible. We react with emotion under certain situations. But when we’re posting on a forum, by definition, we have passed the point of immediacy. (Most people are not posting moments after an incident. Perhaps it happens occasionally.) That is the time to think through the situation and other elements to the situation.

I would normally sympathize with you completely, since my only experience with these types of incidents at Hains Point has been as a solo rider who has been swept up in fast and aggressive pacelines/pelotons. And yet, I’m put off by a lot of the thread. (I didn’t read the entire thread and I won’t do so, but I think I’ve read enough of it.) If you are turning off and antagonizing people in the same situation and perspective, then something is wrong. Dislike this post if you want, but I think it needed to be posted. With that, I’m movin’ on from the thread.

[Author]

Posts