Haines Point lunchtime riders etiquette

[Supermau]

@Harry Meatmotor 95954 wrote:

I know this is going to come off as arrogant or apologist for the poor behavior of those riders, but what happened there is pretty common if you’re used to riding in groups. it’s not “good,” that’s for sure, but there’s one simple concept that applies to any kind of riding (well, except for spinning on a trainer in your basement): your front wheel is your responsibility.

Yes, they passed too closely, and yes, she should have apologized immediately for bumping you (which she did later, and many of her cohorts did on her behalf), but I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that the majority of those riders have participated in races of some sort, where bumping elbows, hips, and shoulders is just what happens, especially when negotiating corners in a group. folks who race (or ride in groups) just get used to the contact – in fact, some riders actually practice “bump drills” where contact between riders is mandatory, to build confidence and bike handling skills. And if you bump somebody unintentionally, it’s generally not the kind of thing that group riders get too worked up over. Sure, we might yell things like “HOLD YOUR LINE” if somebody starts chopping a corner, but at the end of the day, i know that my front wheel is my responsibility.

Again – I know that sounds like I’m defending those ELITE SOBs, but it helps to understand where they’re coming from, too. The only other advice I can give is when you hear a bunch of chatter that sounds like a large-ish 2×2 paceline, stay to your right and ride predictably – no swerving or braking.

let the Dislikes fly!

I get the point here but it’s kind of like saying if you walk by the dojo at the strip mall, expect to get kicked in the head, after all, the martial arts students are used to it.

Those riders had a country mile on the left to pass safely. Sally didn’t even acknowledge the infraction when it occurred. Shame on her. I couldn’t imagine bumping an innocent rider on the streets and not immediately apologizing for my idiocy and lack of attention.

Not to jump all over you, Harry. Just my two cents.

[jrenaut]

These clowns need to learn Rule 5. You’re training. Going wide to pass and stopping at stop signs make it harder, and therefore better for training. You don’t train on a gentle downward slope to go take on a mountain. Your lap time on a training ride only matters if you need something meaningless to puff up your ego.

[Harry Meatmotor]

@Crickey7 95968 wrote:

In my book, if you bump someone outside of a race, you immediately check to see if they’re okay and you say you’re sorry. That’s pretty much as cardinal a rule as I know.

Absolutely – the point of my original contribution to this thread was to explain that in no way can a rider guarantee NOT getting bumped (ever!) around busy Haines PT at lunchtime. That’s different from not being apologized to after being bumped. Cursing at and berating other riders only makes things worse, and it was obvious (to me, at least) that several of the other offensive ELITEs were aware of the situation and were apologizing on her behalf, and attempting to deescalate the situation. To label every kitted-up rider as an ELITE a-hole only puts all riders more at odds with each other and doesn’t do much to help the situation.

[dplasters]

Using public parks for your pipe dream training…. Where have I seen that go wrong recently?

[hozn]

It’s too bad this happened. She should have apologized; I think everyone agrees here that the reaction this incident was not appropriate. But to extrapolate from her reaction (or lack thereof) to road cycling at HP is wrong. I’m sure, as fellow cyclists, we know not to lump everyone into the same category based on one person’s behavior — just as those of us who ride our bikes to work like it when those in cars don’t assume all cyclists are scofflaw idiots because they saw someone blowing through a red light into cross traffic.

But I think riding at HP during the time when the big lunch rides are happening does require a bit of defensive cycling. And maybe if you just want to casually spin the pedals around the loop, there would be better times to do this. Specifically, I would suggest riding on the right side of the lane, because the groups are going to also ride on the right side of the road (as one should) and will only move left to pass you. It is more difficult to negotiate around road furniture when the groups are riding two (or more) abreast. Bumps are going to happen when you’re sharing the road with that many cyclists. It doesn’t excuse the [lack of] reaction, but it’s something that should not surprise you. Also, they’re not going to stop at the stop signs and they’re going to turn right. This is simply what happens there. It may be wrong/illegal, but thinking you’re gonna go straight from the right lane at the stop sign (while a group is overtaking you) would be suicidal.

I would recommend that the best way to develop a better relationship with the lunch rides at HP is to join one. That particular group looked pretty casual (18mph is pretty slow in a group), but you can definitely get a great workout if you choose the right company.

[vvill]

Unfortunately, it’s not the first time this has been brought up here recently:
http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?7426-Hain-s-Pt-peleton-rides

[Raymo853]

@Sunyata 95957 wrote:

And I will tell you that if someone had bumped me like that, I would have probably reacted in the exact same way. :

As someone who has gotten into multiple fist fights with other riders, I know at a point in my life, I would have reacted badly as well. I probably would have pushed into the group to get next to her and may have purposely knocked her down. Now I really try to just let it go and am better for it.

[Geoff]

This whole thread tells me I need to quit being bugged by people who don’t call their passes but otherwise give me plenty of room.

[gtmandsager]

I’m glad that nobody got hurt, but I can’t get past the drastically different ways you chose to respond to dangerous behavior and am concerned that are others who say they would have done the same.

I get that the woman bumped your handlebars, I can’t tell from the video by how much, or how close you were to falling. Did you notice that she was squeezed between you and the rider to her left? Or that you may have drifted a little to the left at :37, though I can’t be sure because of the camera angle? It looks like the group, who called their pass, was trying to keep the left lane open for cars and the guy in green/yellow didn’t give her enough room to get by you. It sucks, but she has no incentive to run into you, she easily could have gone down herself, but everyone obviously stayed upright. I even hear, at :40 (after “what the hell are you doing?), something that sounds like “sorry.” Maybe she didn’t say it, but you make it clear that you don’t care because she didn’t do it right.

I’m more struck by your response than her bump. Despite the fact that “the group” passed you way too close, you focused on her, demanding that her fellow riders make her apologize, and then chasing her down yourself. Once you got up to her, you cut across the group, literally putting her to heel. You didn’t make an issue of her riding, you didn’t remind her that she could have crashed you out or that as a fellow road user you’re deserving of respect and space. In your fury, you focused on mansplaining a proper apology. I’m surprised you didn’t tell her to curtsy. And then to the guys who pass by, you say that it’s all okay but keep her in line next time.

That sh*tty right turn in video #2 could have caused some serious harm, I’ve talked to people on these rides about how crappy and dangerous it is. Where’s the outrage? Despite the group slowing in front of you after the turn, I don’t see you cranking it up, as you did before, to berate the offending riders, or demand of others who go by that they shame their fellow riders or “tell them to apologize.”

The outcomes of both videos are the same: some riders put you at risk but everything turned out okay. Only the woman in video #1 is on the receiving end of your loud and humiliating outrage.

[Subby]

@gtmandsager 96010 wrote:

I’m glad that nobody got hurt, but I can’t get past the drastically different ways you chose to respond to dangerous behavior and am concerned that are others who say they would have done the same.

I get that the woman bumped your handlebars, I can’t tell from the video by how much, or how close you were to falling. Did you notice that she was squeezed between you and the rider to her left? Or that you may have drifted a little to the left at :37, though I can’t be sure because of the camera angle? It looks like the group, who called their pass, was trying to keep the left lane open for cars and the guy in green/yellow didn’t give her enough room to get by you. It sucks, but she has no incentive to run into you, she easily could have gone down herself, but everyone obviously stayed upright. I even hear, at :40 (after “what the hell are you doing?), something that sounds like “sorry.” Maybe she didn’t say it, but you make it clear that you don’t care because she didn’t do it right.

I’m more struck by your response than her bump. Despite the fact that “the group” passed you way too close, you focused on her, demanding that her fellow riders make her apologize, and then chasing her down yourself. Once you got up to her, you cut across the group, literally putting her to heel. You didn’t make an issue of her riding, you didn’t remind her that she could have crashed you out or that as a fellow road user you’re deserving of respect and space. In your fury, you focused on mansplaining a proper apology. I’m surprised you didn’t tell her to curtsy. And then to the guys who pass by, you say that it’s all okay but keep her in line next time.

That sh*tty right turn in video #2 could have caused some serious harm, I’ve talked to people on these rides about how crappy and dangerous it is. Where’s the outrage? Despite the group slowing in front of you after the turn, I don’t see you cranking it up, as you did before, to berate the offending riders, or demand of others who go by that they shame their fellow riders or “tell them to apologize.”

The outcomes of both videos are the same: some riders put you at risk but everything turned out okay. Only the woman in video #1 is on the receiving end of your loud and humiliating outrage.

This thread just got real.

[Crickey7]

I noticed she got squeezed. For the life of me, I can’t imagine how that excuses her from checking and apologizing. I’m also not crazy about the poster’s reaction. There was a time I did that kind of thing a lot more, but I’ve gotten more zen. I never found I really got the resolution I wanted, anyway. And my only other thought is that in general training rides in crowded locales are fraught with danger, and it’s not really fair to pass that danger along to everyone the ride encounters.

[baiskeli]

@gtmandsager 96010 wrote:

In your fury, you focused on mansplaining a proper apology. I’m surprised you didn’t tell her to curtsy. And then to the guys who pass by, you say that it’s all okay but keep her in line next time.

Now this is a sexism thing?

Someone bumps me and doesn’t even acknowledge it, male or female, I’d be annoyed, and I’d treat the offender the same, male or female. We’d all react differently, of course, but how the heck can anyone see this in terms of gender?

Once you got up to her, you cut across the group, literally putting her to heel. You didn’t make an issue of her riding, you didn’t remind her that she could have crashed you out or that as a fellow road user you’re deserving of respect and space.

I think that’s because he assumes she already knows that stuff, being a group rider. She appeared not to care, and that is what angered him. Regardless of whether one thinks his reaction was appropriate, that’s what I read as his grievance.

[ShawnoftheDread]

Getting pissed at crappy and rude riders is the new war on women. I call Sexism Corollary to Godwin’s Law.

[Raymo853]

I suspect she is a Mac user.

[83b]

@hozn 95987 wrote:

And maybe if you just want to casually spin the pedals around the loop, there would be better times to do this.

I’m afraid I take issue here. Suggesting that casual riders should avoid the most popular loop in the city at very popular times to ride (every weekday lunch hour and Thursday evening) seems to me like too much to either ask or expect. And since there’s no organization around these rides, casual cyclists are only going to find out that they’re infringing on the Elites’ training time when they show up and experience a problem like KLizzote and the OP.

@gtmandsager 96010 wrote:

In your fury, you focused on mansplaining a proper apology. I’m surprised you didn’t tell her to curtsy.

Unless that rider has some sort of particular expertise in apologies, “mansplaining” doesn’t really work here. We don’t have to play social justice bingo just because two people of different genders treated each other poorly.

As for my take on the situation, it’s no different than the last time this came up. I think everyone agrees Haines Point is the least bad location for a weeknight training session that the city has, but that it doesn’t absolve the training group from the responsibility to act appropriately towards others. And in the absence of any better facilities:

• group rides are going to continue at HP;
• some group rides and/or particular group riders will ride without due regard for the safety of other park users;
• many non-group riders will feel aggrieved when forced to bear the negative externality of a group’s risky behavior;
• some aggrieved non-group riders will respond with mild opprobrium (see e.g., KLizotte);
• some aggrieved non-group riders will respond with spittle-flecked, profanity-laced (and perhaps threatening) tirades (see e.g., OP and, if I’m forced to be honest about my least attractive qualities, probably me in this situation);
• at some point we will surely see a thread describing a group ride that hits and injures another park user;
• at some point we will surely see a thread describing some aggrieved non-group rider starting a fight or intentionally knocking down a rider or riders;
• a whole bunch of threads about idiots killing DC cyclists with cars are very likely to appear before either of those HP disaster threads are realized;
• the sun will come out tomorrow (am I the only one looking forward to the Annie remake?)!

[Author]

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