Freezing Saddles 2018

[ginacico]

@lordofthemark 169063 wrote:

Which indicates that people really like it as it is now. We don’t seem to be seeing people leaving –

………yet. Not everyone is expressing it on the forum, but I am not alone.

You fail to account for people who stopped participating last year, partly due to the game’s change in direction. And for the dozens of newcomers submitting their one obligatory qualifying post on the forum, who intend to ride their bikes and otherwise prefer to stay anonymous.

Again, who cares what I think. I’ve already bailed with no regrets, and you’ll get 250 regardless. But the change in dynamics (especially the suggestions that meddle with and complicate scoring) IS causing a change in participation.

@lordofthemark 169047 wrote:

That suggests that improving it in any way is not actually a priority.

@lordofthemark 169065 wrote:

. Many people have weighed in agreeing that FS is more than just days and miles,
It is. But not everything that It is needs to be incented through the scoring system. It just emerges naturally as part of a light hearted competition.

Agree with above.

[ShawnoftheDread]

I’m against a scoring change for one reason, and it’s the best of all possible reasons: Steve O is in favor of it.

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[lordofthemark]

@ginacico 169103 wrote:

………yet. Not everyone is expressing it on the forum, but I am not alone.

You fail to account for people who stopped participating last year, partly due to the game’s change in direction. And for the dozens of newcomers submitting their one obligatory qualifying post on the forum, who intend to ride their bikes and otherwise prefer to stay anonymous.

Again, who cares what I think. I’ve already bailed with no regrets, and you’ll get 250 regardless. But the change in dynamics (especially the suggestions that meddle with and complicate scoring) IS causing a change in participation.

Agree with above.

I am interested in your opinion, and everyone else’s opinion. I don’t know if my opinions will persuade everyone, or anyone.

I am a bit confused though. You seem to want to keep the scoring system the same, yet are unhappy with last year’s FS, when it had the old scoring system. I guess it was social butterfly prize you disliked? We have had multiple pointless prizes, and I have certainly never paid attention to them all. Did you feel that it was annoying when people got up to take pictures at events? Some people would anyway, but I guess it’s different when we know it’s for a prize. I would be reluctant to “censor ” proposed prizes, but I can see that some would impact the tenor of the game more than others do. Hmmm.

[consularrider]

Another pre-Freezing Saddles training ride. 31°F, light snow falling (about 2″ accumulation by the end of the ride), just under 26 miles, and stopping by the Weinachtsmarkts in Bad Homburg and Oberursel. Phone battery died after the first photo.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15812[/ATTACH]

[ginacico]

@lordofthemark 169117 wrote:

I am interested in your opinion, and everyone else’s opinion.

Just the messenger:

2. No social scoring. It’s inequitable, and a lot of people think it’s downright weird and creepy to the point of being a deal killer. That discussion needs to stop or people will bail.
3. Demote the individual leaderboard.
4. The team scoring system has to be simple, data based, and transparent. Nobody wants to do advanced math to understand their ranking. (If it’s built into the software, just have a place where it’s explained.)
5. Everything else is pointless prizes. Maybe not so many of them that the competition is drowned out by noise.
6. The endless agonizing pregame forum “discussion” drives people away every year. It is a primary cause for people who play but don’t have an online presence, and don’t care to meet in person. Even more regular members hope this annual “tradition” dies down and results in minimal changes. It’s NOT a community builder. Disable Steve O’s account for Nov-Dec if necessary. (Sorry. Not.)
7. Go ride your bike with people you like. Have a drink. Win. (thanks, americancyclo)

[AFHokie]

@ginacico 169139 wrote:

Just the messenger:

2. No social scoring. It’s inequitable, and a lot of people think it’s downright weird and creepy to the point of being a deal killer. That discussion needs to stop or people will bail.
3. Demote the individual leaderboard.
4. The team scoring system has to be simple, data based, and transparent. Nobody wants to do advanced math to understand their ranking. (If it’s built into the software, just have a place where it’s explained.)
5. Everything else is pointless prizes. Maybe not so many of them that the competition is drowned out by noise.
6. The endless agonizing pregame forum “discussion” drives people away every year. It is a primary cause for people who play but don’t have an online presence, and don’t care to meet in person. Even more regular members hope this annual “tradition” dies down and results in minimal changes. It’s NOT a community builder. Disable Steve O’s account for Nov-Dec if necessary. (Sorry. Not.)
7. Go ride your bike with people you like. Have a drink. Win. (thanks, americancyclo)

All. Of. This.

Include me in the “please knock off the endless quibbling” camp. I agree with all of Gina’s points about it and despite having registered it seriously has me on the fence about participating. Those threads makes me wish I could block entire threads from my feed.

Add no slackers; you either play or you dont.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930AZ using Tapatalk

[accordioneur]

@ginacico 169139 wrote:

Just the messenger:

2. No social scoring. It’s inequitable, and a lot of people think it’s downright weird and creepy to the point of being a deal killer. That discussion needs to stop or people will bail.
3. Demote the individual leaderboard.
4. The team scoring system has to be simple, data based, and transparent. Nobody wants to do advanced math to understand their ranking. (If it’s built into the software, just have a place where it’s explained.)
5. Everything else is pointless prizes. Maybe not so many of them that the competition is drowned out by noise.
6. The endless agonizing pregame forum “discussion” drives people away every year. It is a primary cause for people who play but don’t have an online presence, and don’t care to meet in person. Even more regular members hope this annual “tradition” dies down and results in minimal changes. It’s NOT a community builder. Disable Steve O’s account for Nov-Dec if necessary. (Sorry. Not.)
7. Go ride your bike with people you like. Have a drink. Win. (thanks, americancyclo)

I’m with gina and AFhokie on this one. I think we’re going too far in trying to legislate a particular way to play the game.

SteveO mentioned earlier that he regards New Coke as a positive example because the company experimented and learned from it. Well, what they learned was that people had a tremendous affinity for the existing product – far more than the company had realized – and to leave well enough alone. Or, to put it another way,

There’s a reason why DC is 2800 miles away from Silicon Valley:
DC bureaucrat – “I will put in place many convoluted rules to in an attempt legislate how people behave, distorting their natural preferences and the market”
Silicon Valley entrepreneur- “Hey, I’ve got a product that people like. Let’s run with it!”

[LhasaCM]

Having most of my interaction with folks here be on this forum and with discussions being a bit over the top (since, internet and other lame excuses), it’s easy to lose perspective. So, at the risk of being someone who lit a bunch of matches and is now yelling “fire!” – thank you all for your thoughts. If nothing else, it helped me (re)gain a sense of perspective.

[streetsmarts]

the perspective of someone who almost never ride her bike ..until May 2016:

encourage us to ride in cold temps/winter by (incentives for me): extra points for my team, bragging rights, meeting new people, coffee, food, beer, new routes..

don’t make it so difficult to understand the rules that you drive me/ us away!

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[hozn]

I think it’s a little ridiculous that people discussing excitedly ways to improve the game is driving anyone away. You don’t have to read the thread if you don’t care!

Anyway, I think it makes sense to leave scoring alone for 2018 and revisit for 2019 before registration opens. We’ll implement proposed scoring systems as alternative leaderboards and see how it shakes out.

Finally, I would only say add that I think this would be a better game if the original players were all (or even mostly) still interested in playing it. There’s clearly room for improvement.

[lordofthemark]

@hozn 169179 wrote:

I think it’s a little ridiculous that people discussing excitedly ways to improve the game is driving anyone away. You don’t have to read the thread if you don’t care!

Anyway, I think it makes sense to leave scoring alone for 2018 and revisit for 2019 before registration opens. We’ll implement proposed scoring systems as alternative leaderboards and see how it shakes out.

Finally, I would only say add that I think this would be a better game if the original players were all (or even mostly) still interested in playing it. There’s clearly room for improvement.

This. Look, I mostly disagree with SteveO on his proposed changes (though I am fine with the ones Hozn mentions).

But its odd to have people so thrown by by some nerdy discussions. You don’t have to read them (and maybe we should keep that to its special thread). Just like you don’t have to read about ebikes. I mean especially when the complaint is that people are being manipulated – I think people should socialize when they want to and not when they do not want to. That means we don’t penalize folks for not going to a group ride. But it also means we don’t censor folks who want to chat about mathematical variations on FS scoring in the forum. Censoring that is telling people how to behave as much as (or more than) giving people FS points for standing on their head while taking a selfie.

[lordofthemark]

Somehow we need to honor “Cindy” of Arlnow

I grew up near Boston and my parents would not allow me to ride a bicycle in the Winter. Too dangerous. It still is. Why is County Government encouraging this behavior? Many bicyclists refuse to wear helmets. How many serious injuries will this cause?

and

Riding a bicycle in Winter will always be very dangerous. Why is the County promoting this behavior?

A Cindy prize? Or would that just be mean?

[lordofthemark]

@accordioneur 169158 wrote:

I’m with gina and AFhokie on this one. I think we’re going too far in trying to legislate a particular way to play the game.

SteveO mentioned earlier that he regards New Coke as a positive example because the company experimented and learned from it. Well, what they learned was that people had a tremendous affinity for the existing product – far more than the company had realized – and to leave well enough alone. Or, to put it another way,

There’s a reason why DC is 2800 miles away from Silicon Valley:
DC bureaucrat – “I will put in place many convoluted rules to in an attempt legislate how people behave, distorting their natural preferences and the market”
Silicon Valley entrepreneur- “Hey, I’ve got a product that people like. Let’s run with it!”

What are the natural preferences of human beings? I gather for most people, its to stay inside in the winter, as much as possible, to the extent of MOVING to warmer climates, keeping two households, etc. With outdoor exercise largely confined to sports that can ONLY be done in the winter. Having FS, and scoring it at all, is encouraging people against their natural preferences. Its just a matter of how we do so. And its a game. Games have rules. Sometimes simple rules, sometimes complicated rules. You don’t want rules, don’t play a game.

I can see the case for simple rules. But that doesn’t mean the simplest possible rules (I mean wouldn’t it be simpler to just count miles and NOT give extra points for the first mile? But does anyone want that?)

And as someone who has the psychological profile to enjoy this kind of quibbling, I readily understand that many people do not – though this community’s apparent friendliness to this particular variety of nerdiness has been one thing I have found welcoming about it. Some people hear a debate and feel a “fight” though the participants don’t necessarily feel that at all. And thats okay. But I think that the intense, convoluted, “argumentative” (but with respect, and even, dare I say, with love) way of being is just as valid a way of being in the world as the more retiring way.

So SteveO, keep posting. Even though you are completely wrong

[Judd]

@lordofthemark 169290 wrote:

But its odd to have people so thrown by by some nerdy discussions. You don’t have to read them (and maybe we should keep that to its special thread).

.

People are really emotionally invested in Freezing Saddles and I can’t blame them. I had an emotional response to the discussion which is probably best discussed at coffee club.

[chuxtr]

@lordofthemark 169294 wrote:

So SteveO, keep posting. Even though you are completely wrong

This.

[Author]

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