Fine for riding e-bikes on trails in DC?

[dasgeh]

@mstone 98127 wrote:

No, I want to keep the current situation where people just use reasonable ebikes on the trail in such a way that most people don’t even notice, and nobody really cares.

Maybe those people using reasonable ebikes on the trails don’t want to be breaking the law.

@mstone 98127 wrote:

We’re never going to see that level of enforcement. We might get to a point where the police will look for a person with repeat complaints and tell him to get the motorized vehicle off the trail, but we’re not going to have a permanent presence that penalizes bad behavior as it happens.

So a cop pulls someone over because he suspects they’re running an overpowered bike, and the process is that they whip out the manual? And the cop just says “ok, you’ve got a manual”? For a scheme like that to work you’d end up with a vehicle registration scheme just like you have for cars to enforce all of the motor vehicle regulations (which would make the price advantage of ebikes vanish, and put things on a bad course for cycling generally).

We generally only get enforcement against bikes when there’s a collision, which makes sense: bikes don’t pose enough risk to warrant the cost of preventative enforcement (as opposed to, say, cars). So when there’s a collision on the trail, the authorities can look up the materials on the bike to see if it meets the standard. Or they can write the ticket and it can be challenged with documentation from the manufacturer. Either way, it’s pretty easy.

@mstone 98127 wrote:

I do not believe there’s any chance that will reflect the state of affairs in a decade, as improved batteries get cheaper and more widely available. That is really the only limitation at this point. I don’t expect that this will be something that involves a soldering iron, but rather the purchase of a widget off amazon. You seem to think that the current limits are set in stone, but what you can buy today at a store would have been either a fantasy or a hell of an impressive DIY project a decade ago.

So put in an exception to the ban that expires. But don’t punish the families, pregnant women and disabled folks who want to use the trails now and need to use ebikes.

[lordofthemark]

How about continue the current status quo (ban but with discretionary enforcement) but write in legalization for select classes of riders with a special need – IE families, pregnant women, and disabled folks – so no change from the status quo (since there will be no discretionary enforcement against the latter anyway) except members of the latter group who are bothered about a “technical” violation of the law can have an easier conscience (and an easier explanation to their kids, should their kids ask.)

[runbike]

I think I have a relatively simple fix from the regulation standpoint. Hear me out –

We have a federal definition of electric bicycle that sets limits on watts, speed cutoff, etc that is applied for manufacturing standards. To me this means that any company making an electric bicycle that exceeds those standards is no longer allowed to use the term “bicycle” when marketing their product. Call it what it is at that point – an electric motorcycle.

Part of me wonders how companies like Stealth Electric can proudly call their Bomber a “bicycle” on their website. Dude, just because you slapped a pair of functional pedals on it doesn’t mean you can take it on the same MUPs where you would a $50 Huffy from Walmart. But that seems to be where a lot of the fear is coming from in this debate, the idea that somebody who buys one of these things will say, “Hey, they sold it to me as a bicycle, so now I’m going to take it on the WOD!”

So maybe I think people really are that stupid, but if companies are forced to live up to the federal definition in their marketing materials this whole issue would evaporate. Because in my mind that simple change, from “bicycle” to “motorcycle” carries with it a whole new schema that would keep people from engaging in the kind of behavior we’re all afraid of.

BTW – Stealth does have a disclaimer, but it’s buried under the “policies” section at the bottom of the homepage under the nondescript heading “product liability”. It’s only there that you’ll see their bikes are “designed for recreational or off road use. Please consult you local authorities to find out the rules and regulations for electric vehicles.” Note how when it matters (like, cause their lawyers wrote it) they call it an electric “vehicle” :p

[UnknownCyclist]

@dasgeh 98129 wrote:

. But don’t punish the families, pregnant women and disabled folks who want to use the trails now and need to use ebikes.

We know these folks always make the best transportation choices. I’ve never seen a pregnant soccer mom driving a black SUV with Maryland plates.:rolleyes:

[jnva]

More “powerful” batteries are not the only thing holding up ebikes. It’s the higher voltage and amperage that necessitates every electric component to be upgraded to handle the increased power. It’s not cheap or as easy as simply replacing a battery. 36/48 volt systems are pretty standard, similar to how 12v is the standard for autos. Try upgrading your car battery to 36v and see what happens, I dare you!

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 98141 wrote:

More “powerful” batteries are not the only thing holding up ebikes. It’s the higher voltage and amperage that necessitates every electric component to be upgraded to handle the increased power. It’s not cheap or as easy as simply replacing a battery. 36/48 volt systems are pretty standard, similar to how 12v is the standard for autos. Try upgrading your car battery to 36v and see what happens, I dare you!

But the motors are simply designed for whatever common voltage is out there. And they tend to work with a range of voltages pretty well. The voltage limit is usually the controller, not the motor.

The point is that the reason bikes aren’t faster isn’t that the motor tech isn’t there (it is), its mostly that running a more powerful motor takes larger batteries, which increase the weight and expense beyond what people are comfortable with. If the batteries get cheaper and lighter, motor power can increase. More powerful motors already exist, and they aren’t that expensive.

EDIT: for example, here is a group buy for chinese 3000w hub motors for less than 200 bucks, designed to run at 48v:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=63394

3000w will easily get you into motorcycle-esque speeds. The real limit to these is hooking up enough batteries to them to get reasonable range, and the expense of such.

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 98137 wrote:

How about continue the current status quo (ban but with discretionary enforcement) but write in legalization for select classes of riders with a special need – IE families, pregnant women, and disabled folks – so no change from the status quo (since there will be no discretionary enforcement against the latter anyway) except members of the latter group who are bothered about a “technical” violation of the law can have an easier conscience (and an easier explanation to their kids, should their kids ask.)

It’s an idea. Problem is, how do you know who “needs” it? Just take pregnant women: I was able to ride normal bikes without a problem with #1 until I was pretty big. With #2, riding a normal bike made me throw up starting at about 5 weeks — long before I was visibly pregnant or I told people outside of family. Other women have been seen doing laps at HP past their due date. Everyone is different.

The price tag does a pretty good job at weeding out people who “need” it.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 98150 wrote:

It’s an idea. Problem is, how do you know who “needs” it? Just take pregnant women: I was able to ride normal bikes without a problem with #1 until I was pretty big. With #2, riding a normal bike made me throw up starting at about 5 weeks — long before I was visibly pregnant or I told people outside of family. Other women have been seen doing laps at HP past their due date. Everyone is different.

The price tag does a pretty good job at weeding out people who “need” it.

You get a note from your doctor (like the parking passes for the disabled – and no, I am not worried that the trails will be mobbed with first trimester moms who don’t need it but are cheating – let any pregant mom get a pass) – as for who is riding with kids in tow, that should be obvious.

As for the price tag limiting it to folks who really need it – I would have thought so – but I met a man, at least two decades younger than me, who said he rode an ebike (could it have been e-assist only – I don’t think so) to work because he is lazy (he picks it over driving because its cheaper.) And his commute is not that far – north Alexandria to Crystal City, I think. That’s at 2014 prices, which I am told will come down.

[jnva]

@jabberwocky 98147 wrote:

But the motors are simply designed for whatever common voltage is out there. And they tend to work with a range of voltages pretty well. The voltage limit is usually the controller, not the motor.

The point is that the reason bikes aren’t faster isn’t that the motor tech isn’t there (it is), its mostly that running a more powerful motor takes larger batteries, which increase the weight and expense beyond what people are comfortable with. If the batteries get cheaper and lighter, motor power can increase. More powerful motors already exist, and they aren’t that expensive.

EDIT: for example, here is a group buy for chinese 3000w hub motors for less than 200 bucks, designed to run at 48v:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=63394

3000w will easily get you into motorcycle-esque speeds. The real limit to these is hooking up enough batteries to them to get reasonable range, and the expense of such.

I catch your drift. You do need larger gauge phase wires to handle the current, which I’m pretty sure this motor has. This isn’t the type of motor you’ll typically find on production ebikes though, except for the stealth. My point is that if you want that level of power, you might as well buy a motorcycle. Unless like me you like spending more money to build it yourself

Also, I think there is a law in va now that you have register as a moped if it is capable of more than 30mph. On my 15 mile commute, whether I go by car, bike, or ebike, my average speed is never more than 20 mph. This afternoon I averaged 16mph. High speed does me no good, except for safely keeping up with traffic on short sections of lee hiway. Even if I had a 3000 watt motor I couldn’t use it around here. Kind of like having a Ferrari to commute on 66. It’s just a waste.

Edit to add that riding metro consistently gives me the slowest average speed in my commute. Something like 10mph. Ugh, I’ll never ride metro again!!!!

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 98154 wrote:

I catch your drift. You do need larger gauge phase wires to handle the current, which I’m pretty sure this motor has. This isn’t the type of motor you’ll typically find on production ebikes though, except for the stealth. My point is that if you want that level of power, you might as well buy a motorcycle. Unless like me you like spending more money to build it yourself

Also, I think there is a law in va now that you have register as a moped if it is capable of more than 30mph. On my 15 mile commute, whether I go by car, bike, or ebike, my average speed is never more than 20 mph. This afternoon I averaged 16mph. High speed does me no good, except for safely keeping up with traffic on short sections of lee hiway. Even if I had a 3000 watt motor I couldn’t use it around here. Kind of like having a Ferrari to commute on 66. It’s just a waste.

The thing is, I think tech like this is seriously awesome! Having that sort of power would enable people to undertake longer commutes via bike, and use roads that might be too unsafe on pure human power. Like I said, I’d much rather see people on e-bikes than in cars. Its just such a murky thing when it comes to multi-use infrastructure that has traditionally been for non-motorized traffic. Sure, the bikes commonly available today aren’t really any less safe than human powered ones. I’ve chased a few e-bikes over the years, and aside from steeper uphills I could keep up alright with some effort. I get that you guys are probably perfectly polite trail users, and just want to get to work, same as me. Allowed or not, I would never give an e-bike rider any crap for riding on the W&OD, for example, as long as they weren’t being colossal dicks. Buts its also almost certainly true that e-bikes will continue to get more powerful and cheaper. Just in the last 10 years things have advanced enormously, and electric propulsion and battery tech is being heavily invested in. I don’t blame people for being resistant to changing the legality of things, at least in some circumstances.

[jnva]

@jabberwocky 98177 wrote:

The thing is, I think tech like this is seriously awesome! Having that sort of power would enable people to undertake longer commutes via bike, and use roads that might be too unsafe on pure human power. Like I said, I’d much rather see people on e-bikes than in cars. Its just such a murky thing when it comes to multi-use infrastructure that has traditionally been for non-motorized traffic. Sure, the bikes commonly available today aren’t really any less safe than human powered ones. I’ve chased a few e-bikes over the years, and aside from steeper uphills I could keep up alright with some effort. I get that you guys are probably perfectly polite trail users, and just want to get to work, same as me. Allowed or not, I would never give an e-bike rider any crap for riding on the W&OD, for example, as long as they weren’t being colossal dicks. Buts its also almost certainly true that e-bikes will continue to get more powerful and cheaper. Just in the last 10 years things have advanced enormously, and electric propulsion and battery tech is being heavily invested in. I don’t blame people for being resistant to changing the legality of things, at least in some circumstances.

I’m glad we are on the same page! The thing that pisses me off though is that I think battery technology has NOT advanced nearly as much as it should have in the last 10 years. Instead, we have cheap gasoline.

And batteries that you buy for ebikes are either RC lipo or defective cells that the car manufacturers don’t use. I would much rather have a long lasting cell with a low c-rate than a high power cell. But these are all made for the auto industry.

I think we are at the beginning of the light electric vehicle revolution. I can’t imagine getting back in my car wasting time in traffic ever again. I was hooked the first time I rode an ebike, after commuting for years (like since the mid 80’s) on bicycles.

[jabberwocky]

@jnva 98180 wrote:

I’m glad we are on the same page! The thing that pisses me off though is that I think battery technology has NOT advanced nearly as much as it should have in the last 10 years. Instead, we have cheap gasoline.

And batteries that you buy for ebikes are either RC lipo or defective cells that the car manufacturers don’t use. I would much rather have a long lasting cell with a low c-rate than a high power cell. But these are all made for the auto industry.

I think we are at the beginning of the light electric vehicle revolution. I can’t imagine getting back in my car wasting time in traffic ever again. I was hooked the first time I rode an ebike, after commuting for years (like since the mid 80’s) on bicycles.

Funnily enough, some e-bike DIY folks are sourcing replacement hybrid car battery packs for e-bike use. The nissan leaf pack is apparently somewhat popular for that. Batteries (and the whole charging/BMS) are the tough part of DIY, but while things may not have progressed as far as we’d like, they have progressed quite a bit over the last decade.

As I mentioned earlier, I converted a sector 9 longboard to electric earlier this year (two 50mm brushless motors connected to the wheels with timing belts and driven by an RC ESC and controller). Its a blast!

[jnva]

http://greyborgusa.com/products-2/frames/

This is my next project. It’s a perfect combination of full suspension and battery capacity. All DIY. I’m working on the battery, controller, BMS and variable regen braking. Hoping this will make commuting more comfortable than my old hardtail I’m using.

[peterw_diy]

@lordofthemark 98151 wrote:

as for who is riding with kids in tow, that should be obvious.

How’s that? Am I supposed to lock my battery to the rack after dropping my kid off at school so that I can’t “cheat” solo? Tow a conventional bike to school and lock the entire ebike after dropoff?

[mstone]

@dasgeh 98129 wrote:

Maybe those people using reasonable ebikes on the trails don’t want to be breaking the law.[/quote]

Well, we clearly have a difference of opinion on the importance of law. I’m most interested in law as an expression of social objectives, and am far more concerned about social norms than the law itself. (As the social norms dictate actual behavior as well as enforcement.) To me, this is about setting the social norm: are the trails for people or machines? I think that the answer is that they are, and should be, for people and people-powered machines. Non people-powered machines like cars and motorcycles are right out. There’s a gray area for devices that augment people-power but are basically indistinguishable from people-powered machines (on the theory that if they’re indistinguishable, then who cares?) But until someone comes up with a way to clearly express that in law, my desire would be to see the basic concept that the trails are for people expressed, rather than clouding that simple concept.

I’m still open to the idea that a clear law could be written, but I’m certain that if you start talking about horsepower and speed limits you’ve lost–as the concept has become too complicated for ordinary people to grasp intuitively. You keep talking about federal e-bike rules, but I’d hazard a guess that you know more about those than anyone in any police department in the region. It’s the kind of thing a policy wonk can love, but is not something that regular people will immediately understand when they observe and are told that certain electric motorcycles are ok. (Vs the current state when they can easily understand that the social norm is that it’s ok if it’s stealth enough that nobody notices.)

Quote:

We generally only get enforcement against bikes when there’s a collision, which makes sense: bikes don’t pose enough risk to warrant the cost of preventative enforcement (as opposed to, say, cars). So when there’s a collision on the trail, the authorities can look up the materials on the bike to see if it meets the standard. Or they can write the ticket and it can be challenged with documentation from the manufacturer. Either way, it’s pretty easy.

We get enforcement when there’s a collision, or when there are complaints. That’s how I understand this to work: as long as everyone’s behaving, everything is good. If there are complaints about electric motorcycles tearing up the trails, then the police will go out and have something to back up telling the electric motorcycles to get off the trail. You need a fairly general rule like that for complaint-based enforcement to work for this, because the police can understand it and can get results much more easily than they can try to observe specific dangerous behaviors. (I’d also love to see bike cops on the trails issuing citations for specific dangerous behaviors, but that’s a really radical change in direction and training that seems unlikely to happen.) Yes I understand that this opens the door to biased enforcement and the possibility that safe ebike riders get caught up in a backlash–that’s why I’d love to see some good language for a better law.

[Author]

Posts