[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127993 wrote:

In summary…

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by federal definition because as a vehicle it can self-propel no faster than 20 mph with a 170# rider on level terrain.

The ELF as modified remains an electric-assist bicycle by Virginia law since in pedal and electric assist mode it cannot exceed 25mph. (My stock ELF could not exceed 20 mph.)

The ELF can be instantly converted into a regular bicycle by not using the electric assist and driven at speeds in excess of 30mph given sufficient gravity assist. (My stock ELF was limited to 28mph)

The ELF is wide but it fits on a 10 ft trail and can pass another similarly sized vehicle while maintaining 3ft of clearance.

The paved portion of W&OD is 10 ft wide with 4ft of adjacent walking paths between Reston and Vienna, the portion of the W&OD in which the ELF has been ridden.

Virginia Statutes give electric-assist bicycles riders a “by-right” permission to use multi-use paths that cannot be taken away by local jurisdictions.

And I am sure you’ll say these same things while in a civil court watching your house deed being signed over to someone else. As people have shown, effective arguments can be made that it is not an electric assisted bicycle nor allowed on the WOD as according to other VA statutes. Yes the law is insanely complex, contradictory, and illogical. People often get in trouble assuming it is.

My favorite local example, it is illegal to use rain barrels in Arlington Country to collect rain water from your house’s roof, but Arlington Country had a program giving them out to homeowners.

[Raymo853]

@Sunyata 127987 wrote:

(emphasis added by me)

My point was apparently completely ignored by Ed. The ELF is NOT an electric assist bicycle. Electric assist means that the motor is only engaged while you are actively pedaling the bicycle. The ELF can run on battery power alone, without any pedal input from the driver (for 15+ miles, according to the website!). Therefore, the ELF is to be considered a motorized bicycle.

Motorized vehicles (including motorized bicycles) are not allowed on multi use paths by both Virginia and local code.

Seriously, end of discussion. It is not allowed. NVRPA has requested that Ed stop operating the vehicle on the trails. I really do not understand why this is so hard for him to understand. :confused:

Plus Ed has modified his ELF to exceed the limits designed by Organic Transit, making his argument that it is just a bicycle with electric assist, lessened even further.

But let us be honest, Ed is not going to stop using the WOD. The authorities may issue him tickets, orders, etc… but he will fight and ignore them. Various members of the public will debate about him, purposely get in his way, etc… with little real effect beyond their own blood pressure. Organic Transit may even have a little talk with him, as they promised, but he’ll probably ignore and argue with them. In the unlikely event he ever does injure someone, unless he is carrying loads of personal liability insurance, the resulting lawsuit will cost him a lot of money.

[Raymo853]

I do worry about it and also dislike it. While on the roadways right behind cars in dense traffic, I try to stay away from the actual exhaust pipes of larger engined vehicles. I do not fool myself that the air a meter away or so is significantly cleaner, but it is at least closer to ambient temperature and I hope, a little cleaner.

Now regarding being on trails like the Custis, I do not feel more impacted than I do in my house in Arlington or anyplace in the general Wash DC area. I see it all as “bad” without there being many places that are better, regardless if I am on a multi-use path, in my office, the woods of Fort Dupont, my car, my house, …….. which all attributes to my current focus to move out of the Wash DC area.

[Raymo853]

Riders in the 50 States pass very near that intersection. I have gone that way more than a few times while commuting to Suitland. There are usually very few bicycle riders out that way, I wonder if he is one of those few I saw out there these past few years.

[Raymo853]

I fear the reaction may be something like this, which will cause problems for people in wheelchairs and dual child baby buggies.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10084[/ATTACH]

And of course, after I sell an idea I got to Google or Bing, I plan to go get an Optibike R11 and go out hunting Strava Segment KOMs from here to the death climb in the SM100

You should notice, an owner of the 40 mph Optibike, testified about his trip from Pittsburgh to Cumberland on the GAP.

[Raymo853]

Also, we should not paint all DC based ELF drivers the same as Ed Myers, this guy Howard in Bethesda uses his to commute on typical roadways nearly every day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qivqy9Ms3qY&feature=youtu.be

Organic Transit sent out the link after replying to one of my tweets about Ed.

[Raymo853]

@mstone 127811 wrote:

Yes, that’s ridiculously low under some conditions, and ridiculously high under others. That’s the real problem with an arbitrary limit: it’s not helpful in actually addressing safety concerns, because the right answer is to use an appropriate speed. Good sight lines on an empty trail? Who cares how fast you go. Children’s fun run day? You’d better not be trying to go between them at 15MPH. I’d love to see a dynamic limit based on visibility, utilization, weather conditions, nature of other users, etc. Sadly, that’s not feasible.

I agree with you, those limits are silly low at times and silly high at times, just like speed limits on roadways for automobiles. Yes trail users with concern for others would be best, and it what I do. I slow down to under 10 near: children, less than focused runners/walkers, anyone that appears less than fully able-ed, baby buggies ….

But I as I an my dislocated shoulder and split knuckles can attest, that is a fantasy. It is also why my wife and I cannot ride the paths together, she says I am too careful and frustratingly slow.

[Raymo853]

@DismalScientist 127832 wrote:

The poster stated it was “terrifying” riding near the ELF on the trail. I surmise the poster would find riding a bike on a busy road similarly terrifying. Personally I don’t find any of these situations terrifying.

There is a big difference between being on a typical roadway and being passed by a car (they are noisy, even the electric ones, and you expect it) and being on a bike path and being passed by an electric powered car (much quieter, not expected)

[Raymo853]

@AFHokie 127827 wrote:

Horses can’t read…how do they know the rules?

No, but their owners, trainers, and riders (may not all be the same) should and are legally responsible for following the rules, even if they have never read them.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127820 wrote:

Please don’t project. I am simply asking questions to understand the nature of the objection. If it is something that I can change I will. I can reduce the width 6″ by folding in the side mirrors, for example. I can change riding style if it makes people uncomfortable. But if your objections are irrational and you want a rule applied only to the elf but not to any other user of the W&OD with similar characteristics (weight, height, speed, width) then the feedback isn’t going to get much respect.

Please, you are simply oblivious and self-centered, even in this reply you are using the “I may be bad, but so are they.” deflection.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127814 wrote:

A horse weighs 1000#s, and is 5 ft or taller and can gallop at 30 mph. What is your opinion about the safety of horses on the W&OD?

This is covered by established trail etiquette of all users giving way to horses. Plus the sections of the WO&D open to horses is only those parts with a break in the usually adjacent gravel trail.

To me physics and the established legal precedence of grand-fathered in users, justifies this rule. I would say there should be rules about those horse riders that cannot control their animal properly, lack the training themselves, or have not properly trained their animal. They should not be bring such animals onto public properties open to other user groups. (Same applies to dogs)

As yes horses can gallop at such speeds, but not for very long.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10077[/ATTACH]

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127801 wrote:

What is the consensus safe speed limit? I go speeds where I pass leisure riders and get passed by MAMIL. I do have an slight speed advantage going uphill compared to conventional cyclists but have a disadvantage on the downhills and in stop and go traffic.

Very few of the bicycle riders here will agree with my low limits, but I support a 15 mph limit within the beltway and 20 mph further out with limits dropping near crossings and typically crowded sections. Same for the Capital Crescent Trail, Mt Vernon, and the C&O. Your average speed of 19 shows you must typically be exceeding 20 mph on long sections of the WO&D.

Bicycle riders that feel the need to exceed those limits, should change their routes to use standard roadways.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

I simply cannot pedal 34 miles a day on a regular bicycle.

That is about my round trip mileage by bike to work as well, and neither can I ride that distance every day. That is why I also own a petrol burning car and drive some days. I also plan to add to my routine using two modes, riding about 6 miles to a metro and completing the rest of my trip via metro.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

I have debunked the outrageous speed claims (I’m slower than serious regular bicyclists.)

No you have not, your average and max speeds, listed on your webpage, exceeds what is safe on the WO&D in many places.

[Raymo853]

@SolarBikeCar 127794 wrote:

No one is proposing to ban behavior of those other users who take up more than 5 ft of lane width so the argument is pretty weak that an elf is a safety problem on the W&OD.

Ban? I would not how that would work, no one has banned bad behavior of car drivers on roads. Regulate, monitor and fine bad cyclists on infrastructure like the WO&D, I 100% support that.

[Author]

Replies