Wheel suggestions for gravel bike that takes abuse?
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Greenbelt.
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January 28, 2018 at 2:53 am #920186
Brett L.
ParticipantI recently bought a new gravel bike with 12x142mm thru axle wheels that I have been having a lot of fun with but haven’t exactly been kind to. They really mean single track when they say gravel, right? After less than 2 months of use, the back wheel is in the shop needing some attention. There is SIGNIFICANT lateral play in the wheel (wobble) originating from the hub. My uneducated opinion is that the bearings are already shot, and the LBS has warned that the free hub body could be as well. That’s to be determined, and if so warrants a full new wheel. It would not surprise me as I have already destroyed the rear free hub of my road bike in 14 months of use, and that bike was babied in comparison to this bike.
I have two questions:
1) given the extra diameter of a thru axle compared to quick releases, does that mean that the bearings holding it in place are smaller, and consequently more prone to wear (less reliable)?
2) if I have to replace the wheel, what would you recommend? The road bike got outfitted with a built-up wheel with DT Swiss 350 hub. Current wheel is running 700*38 Schwalbe Marathon Almotion tyres set up tubeless. Reliability/durability is most important to me, with weight as a secondary (but not negligible) consideration.
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January 28, 2018 at 2:13 pm #1082927Tania
Participanthozn gave me the idea to use mountain bike rims. My gravel bike has a set of lightweight XC type rims – DT Swiss XR 331s. There’s a relatively low max rig weight limit for these however. The Velocity Airlerons are also a great choice although heavier. I know several people who have these in their gravel rigs – I have a set on my dedicated commuter.
January 28, 2018 at 3:08 pm #1082932Brett L.
Participant@Tania 173488 wrote:
hozn gave me the idea to use mountain bike rims. My gravel bike has a set of lightweight XC type rims – DT Swiss XR 331s. There’s a relatively low max rig weight limit for these however. The Velocity Airlerons are also a great choice although heavier. I know several people who have these in their gravel rigs – I have a set on my dedicated commuter.
Oh! I should probably ask about that. DT Swiss lists the “maximum recommend system weight”. Am I correct in interpreting that means that the bike weight plus rider weight plus everything weight should not exceed 110/120/130 kg (whichever rim) irrelevant of the fact that the load is distributed across two wheels?
If so, I should probably get a beefier rim as I’m 215 lbs on about a 25-30lbs bike (I haven’t weighed it), and I also use this bike for commuting and eventually hauling a trailer. 110kg (242 lbs) rims aren’t enough in that case, and it’s possible 120kg (262 lbs) may not be enough either if I add the trailer or even a set of loaded panniers.
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January 28, 2018 at 4:04 pm #1082937anomad
ParticipantHow are your rims holding up? If you’re destroying bearings after 2 months without beating up the rims or popping spokes I would guess there was an issue with the original quality or improper installation of the wheel bearings.
The extra diameter of the thru axle doesn’t make any difference on the bearing reliability. Even “old fashioned” cup and cone bearings last a long time.
Edit to add a couple links of recent wheel discussions.
http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?12700-What-do-I-need-to-know-about-wheels
http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?12360-Help-me-with-my-wheel-dilemma-(what-to-buy)January 28, 2018 at 4:19 pm #1082939Brett L.
Participant@anomad 173498 wrote:
How are your rims holding up? If you’re destroying bearings after 2 months without beating up the rims or popping spokes I would guess there was an issue with the original quality or improper installation of the wheel bearings.
The extra diameter of the thru axle doesn’t make any difference on the bearing reliability. Even “old fashioned” cup and cone bearings last a long time.
Edit to add a couple links of recent wheel discussions.
http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?12700-What-do-I-need-to-know-about-wheels
http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?12360-Help-me-with-my-wheel-dilemma-(what-to-buy)As far as I can tell, rims have held up. They seemed alright on the road bike as well. I should also mention that I think I destroyed the hubs on a cheap commuter I once owned as well. There seems to be a trend….. The wheels have all been stock wheels of lesser quality, so I’m trusting that after market hubs are of better quality?
And thanks!! I’ll look into those links!
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January 28, 2018 at 4:20 pm #1082940jabberwocky
ParticipantWhats dying? If its hubs, I’d check into why. But lots of good options out there, for every budget. As anomad said, thru axles don’t really affect bearing longevity (there isn’t a realistic limit to the outside diameter of hub bearings, so that isn’t an issue). Could be faulty hubs, or just really cheap ones that didn’t withstand the abuse.
For rims, well, road/gravel rims are the same diameter as MTB 29er rims, so you have a ton of options for heavier duty if necessary. Its worth remembering that the difference between road/gravel/cross/MTB rims is mostly marketing. They are all the same size and can be laced to whatever hub you want.
My recommendation for a durable wheelset for a gravel bike that you want to ride on trails is [whatever hub your budget allows] laced to mid level MTB rims, 32 spokes per wheel laced 3 cross with basic double butted spokes (DT comps or similar).
January 28, 2018 at 4:58 pm #1082941Brett L.
Participant@jabberwocky 173501 wrote:
Whats dying? If its hubs, I’d check into why. But lots of good options out there, for every budget. As anomad said, thru axles don’t really affect bearing longevity (there isn’t a realistic limit to the outside diameter of hub bearings, so that isn’t an issue). Could be faulty hubs, or just really cheap ones that didn’t withstand the abuse.
For rims, well, road/gravel rims are the same diameter as MTB 29er rims, so you have a ton of options for heavier duty if necessary. Its worth remembering that the difference between road/gravel/cross/MTB rims is mostly marketing. They are all the same size and can be laced to whatever hub you want.
My recommendation for a durable wheelset for a gravel bike that you want to ride on trails is [whatever hub your budget allows] laced to mid level MTB rims, 32 spokes per wheel laced 3 cross with basic double butted spokes (DT comps or similar).
I’m not certain I’ll be about to give you a different answer to your first question without repeating what’s been stated already – I’ve been basically wearing out the bearings. The road bike had Shimano ball and cone bearings that disintegrated after a year of riding and lead to a contaminated free hub that had to be replaced. I think the wheels were Shimano RS010. The first bike was a Novara Buzz (REI brand) with cheapo hubs with pitted cones fully integrated and not replaceable.
I don’t know what’s broken yet. My LBS is assessing today. I imagine it’s more of the same. The lateral play I’m talking about – I can wiggle the entire wheel about 1/4″ back and forth and it’s originating in the hub.
I imagine if I’m a little quicker on maintenance, the hubs shouldn’t break down as quick. Maybe I need to start a regular replace cycle with the bearings – every time I replace the chain? That wouldn’t solve today’s issue.
I’m fairly convinced I’ll need new hubs. I’m willing to pay for quality/durability. I doesn’t need to be the lightest but definitely easily serviceable and reliable.
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January 28, 2018 at 9:24 pm #1082915hozn
ParticipantNot sure I understand from above — what hubs are these that you think might be shot?
Edit: and are you saying you destroyed a DT350 rear hub?
January 28, 2018 at 9:33 pm #1082808Brett L.
Participant@hozn 173515 wrote:
Not sure I understand from above — what hubs are these that you think might be shot?
The stock hubs on the Jamis Renegade exploit. Just got back from the LBS – bearings are actually in fairly decent condition but the free hub is completely shot. The nubbies thingers are shearing off significantly, visible to the naked eye. We’re going to replace.
We’ve decided on going with a DT Swiss 350 hub 12*142mm thru axle classic with DT comp spokes.
We’re struggling to find a rim though. Stock rims are WTB i23 STS, so looking for something of similar size. Tyres I’d like to reuse are 700*38c tubeless. I need something that can handle a minimum of 280lbs system weight, but struggling to find something more than 260lbs. Could use suggestions? I have no concern about looking in MTB market as well.
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January 28, 2018 at 11:08 pm #1082961hozn
Participant@Brett L. 173516 wrote:
The stock hubs on the Jamis Renegade exploit. Just got back from the LBS – bearings are actually in fairly decent condition but the free hub is completely shot. The nubbies thingers are shearing off significantly, visible to the naked eye. We’re going to replace.
We’ve decided on going with a DT Swiss 350 hub 12*142mm thru axle classic with DT comp spokes.
We’re struggling to find a rim though. Stock rims are WTB i23 STS, so looking for something of similar size. Tyres I’d like to reuse are 700*38c tubeless. I need something that can handle a minimum of 280lbs system weight, but struggling to find something more than 260lbs. Could use suggestions? I have no concern about looking in MTB market as well.
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I assume there must be damage to the hubs shell too? Otherwise replacing the wheel is not necessary; freehub bodies are probably bless than $50 for that hub. If your rims are fine despite trashing the hubs, why not stick with i23s? Even the one you already own?
If you are set on getting different rims, I’d vote for Stans Arch rims. Or a DT Swiss rim; there are a bazillion, so find some balance of weight and durability.
I run 40mm tires on DT R460db rims, which are extremely good value ($37/rim) and take a good beating. But they are not super wide (18mm internal) and I have no idea whether they would be appropriate for your weight.
January 28, 2018 at 11:38 pm #1082965Birru
Participant@Brett L. 173516 wrote:
The stock hubs on the Jamis Renegade exploit. Just got back from the LBS – bearings are actually in fairly decent condition but the free hub is completely shot. The nubbies thingers are shearing off significantly, visible to the naked eye. We’re going to replace.
We’ve decided on going with a DT Swiss 350 hub 12*142mm thru axle classic with DT comp spokes.
We’re struggling to find a rim though. Stock rims are WTB i23 STS, so looking for something of similar size. Tyres I’d like to reuse are 700*38c tubeless. I need something that can handle a minimum of 280lbs system weight, but struggling to find something more than 260lbs. Could use suggestions? I have no concern about looking in MTB market as well.
Just to add another anecdotal data point, I’ve got a 2017 Renegade Expert, which has the same wheels as the Exploit. I haven’t trashed my hubs yet, but I did develop hairline cracks around the majority of the spoke holes of the rear wheel. Apparently WTB doesn’t make the ST series (ST, STp, STs) so we replaced them with KOM i23 29er rims which also required different spoke lengths. Relaced to the same Formula hubs. As far as system weight goes, would it make sense to explore 36H options?
January 29, 2018 at 3:44 am #1082982Brett L.
Participant@hozn 173527 wrote:
I assume there must be damage to the hubs shell too? Otherwise replacing the wheel is not necessary; freehub bodies are probably bless than $50 for that hub. If your rims are fine despite trashing the hubs, why not stick with i23s? Even the one you already own?
If you are set on getting different rims, I’d vote for Stans Arch rims. Or a DT Swiss rim; there are a bazillion, so find some balance of weight and durability.
I run 40mm tires on DT R460db rims, which are extremely good value ($37/rim) and take a good beating. But they are not super wide (18mm internal) and I have no idea whether they would be appropriate for your weight.
Sorry, it’s not just the freehub body. I am really beyond my knowledge of bike stuff here. Am i correct in understanding that the freehub body is the device that holds the cassette, and is detachable from the main part of the hub? There was some damage to the ratchet thinger that interfaces with the hub. However, there was also tremendous amount of damage on the part of the hub still attached to the spokes where it interfaces with the freehub body.
I unfortunately will not be able to run the R460 rims on this bike. The max system weight is only 232 lbs (110kg), which seems to be quite a common limiter in the market. I put the RR511 on the road bike which brings me up to 286 lbs, but only has the internal rim width of 18mm. Is there a particular reason my LBS would prefer to stick within the same 23mm +/- internal rim width range that came stock with the bike? Note that I am not currently planning on replacing the front wheel as of yet.
January 29, 2018 at 3:54 am #1082983hozn
ParticipantAll things being equal, I would probably pick the wider rim. Nothing wrong with 23mm rims for gravel or MTB. My point was more that you could also go for a narrower rim (I wouldn’t go narrower than 18mm) if you wanted. Wider rims will widen the tire profile a bit. They also increase stiffness. And weigh more.
Anyway, if you have had positive experience with the i23, I would just tell them to re-lace your current rim to a new hub — or if the shop can get you that rim for a good price, getting a new one may not be a terrible idea. I believe those rims are known for cracking at the spokes (if laced with too much tension?) so having an experienced wheel builder put them together (maybe using nipple washers!) is probably a good idea.
I don’t have any first-hand experience with DT350 rear hubs, but the crowd says they’re good. I am about to build my first wheelset with some to-be-rebuilt DT350 hubs to try them out. I like Hope hubs, though, and wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them to someone that is hard on hubs.
January 29, 2018 at 4:00 am #1082985Brett L.
ParticipantThanks! I do appreciate your insight on this. Now hopefully I can find something. The DT Swiss 533d seems to be about the only rim I can find that can support my weight along with load I plan to carry, that is also tubeless in the 23mm internal width range. Apparently, it’s only sold as part of a wheelset though….
January 29, 2018 at 1:41 pm #1082993Brett L.
Participant@Birru 173531 wrote:
Just to add another anecdotal data point, I’ve got a 2017 Renegade Expert, which has the same wheels as the Exploit. I haven’t trashed my hubs yet, but I did develop hairline cracks around the majority of the spoke holes of the rear wheel. Apparently WTB doesn’t make the ST series (ST, STp, STs) so we replaced them with KOM i23 29er rims which also required different spoke lengths. Relaced to the same Formula hubs. As far as system weight goes, would it make sense to explore 36H options?
And I appreciate that info. Pretty much seals the deal on getting a new rim.
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