New "speed control" bariers at Roosevelt Island

[consularrider]

@baiskeli 44499 wrote:

I think it’s not as safe as it could be, but I don’t get how going through a busy parking lot is safer.

I think what a lot of people are saying that this is not a busy parking lot 90% of the time so the jersey barriers are overkill.

[Drewdane]

@baiskeli 44498 wrote:

The trail works fine. It’s not optimal, but it works. You simply have to slow down a little to use it. It’s not a dirt road, or a busy highway, or a narrow strip full of broken glass. It’s a trail. It’s usable.

The parking lot works fine too, and it is closer to optimal than the trail. It is every bit as safe as (if not safer than) the trail, and is rarely busy enough that bicyclists would pose an additional hazard to themselves or others.

IMO, the biggest hazard to using the parking lot is the potential damage to my wheels from hopping the curb while the jersey barriers are in place.

[baiskeli]

@Drewdane 44502 wrote:

The parking lot works fine too, and it is closer to optimal than the trail. It is every bit as safe as (if not safer than) the trail, and is rarely busy enough that bicyclists would pose an additional hazard to themselves or others.

IMO, the biggest hazard to using the parking lot is the potential damage to my wheels from hopping the curb while the jersey barriers are in place.

Well, if the trail and lot are the same, just don’t hop the curb.

[baiskeli]

@consularrider 44501 wrote:

I think what a lot of people are saying that this is not a busy parking lot 90% of the time so the jersey barriers are overkill.

Okay, but the NPS still feels the need for them 10% of the time, and they can’t remove them daily.

I just don’t see how it’s a terrible burden to just ride on the trail.

I know why it feels like a burden. You have to slow down, and you have to turn a funny way. Cycling feels awesome, and slowing down is torture. But that’s a feeling that gets some of us in trouble. It’s why some cyclists do dumb things. (Same goes for motorists – slowing down in a car can feel like hell too). But it’s just a second or two more out of your life.

If there’s a safety problem with using the trail, that’s different. I don’t perceive the parking lot as being safer than the trail, but I could be wrong.

I think one safety issue is cyclists coming through the lot and crossing or joining the trail in the middle, and not yielding to cyclists crossing the crosswalk while entirely in the trail.

[Drewdane]

@baiskeli 44504 wrote:

Well, if the trail and lot are the same, just don’t hop the curb.

They aren’t.

[TwoWheelsDC]

@baiskeli 44505 wrote:

Okay, but the NPS still feels the need for them 10% of the time, and they can’t remove them daily.

I just don’t see how it’s a terrible burden to just ride on the trail.

I know why it feels like a burden. You have to slow down, and you have to turn a funny way. Cycling feels awesome, and slowing down is torture. But that’s a feeling that gets some of us in trouble. It’s why some cyclists do dumb things. (Same goes for motorists – slowing down in a car can feel like hell too). But it’s just a second or two more out of your life.

If there’s a safety problem with using the trail, that’s different. I don’t perceive the parking lot as being safer than the trail, but I could be wrong.

I think one safety issue is cyclists coming through the lot and crossing or joining the trail in the middle, and not yielding to cyclists crossing the crosswalk while entirely in the trail.

Well…I get what you’re saying, but it’s not just about not wanting to slow down. Where the trail crosses the entrance from the smaller lot to the larger parking lot makes for a hairy intersection that is overall probably less safe than just riding through the parking lot. Coming north, for instance, you have to negotiate a 90 degree right hand turn that may or may not have peds/other bikes in it, then immediately cross the parking lot entrance that may or may not have cars coming from BOTH directions, then negotiate another 90 degree turn to the left, where again peds/other bikes may or may not be present. Cutting through the parking lot, on the other hand, is a straight shot that has cyclists negotiating the parking lot in the same manner that cars do (yielding to peds at the crossing, looking out for reversing cars, etc…) and is something cyclists generally are used to. And that parking lot is cramped so I feel drivers are generally cautious. So for me, the parking lot is safer than the trail because it involves fewer variables. Convenience is a secondary complaint.

[dasgeh]

@baiskeli 44505 wrote:

I just don’t see how it’s a terrible burden to just ride on the trail.

I used to think like you — “it’s faster to ride through the parking lot and it sucks to slow down on the trail, but it’s just slowing down” — then I drove through the parking lot. It is incredibly difficult to see trail users crossing in either direction. Trail users headed south/east are coming parallel to cars, and judging their speed and whether they’re going to turn is nearly impossible for drivers; most of the cars coming are coming from behind them. Trail users headed north/west come from behind a huge tree; they can’t see the cars and the cars can’t see them until the last minute. The only safe way to go through as a driver is to stop at the crossing, but most drivers don’t. Until the drivers have a stop sign that they honor, I’m going to go through the parking lot.

[baiskeli]

@Drewdane 44506 wrote:

They aren’t.

But I thought you just said they were.

What’s the advantage of the parking lot?

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 44509 wrote:

I used to think like you — “it’s faster to ride through the parking lot and it sucks to slow down on the trail, but it’s just slowing down” — then I drove through the parking lot. It is incredibly difficult to see trail users crossing in either direction. Trail users headed south/east are coming parallel to cars, and judging their speed and whether they’re going to turn is nearly impossible for drivers; most of the cars coming are coming from behind them. Trail users headed north/west come from behind a huge tree; they can’t see the cars and the cars can’t see them until the last minute. The only safe way to go through as a driver is to stop at the crossing, but most drivers don’t. Until the drivers have a stop sign that they honor, I’m going to go through the parking lot.

Okay, that’s the different perspective (literally) I needed.

[baiskeli]

@TwoWheelsDC 44508 wrote:

Well…I get what you’re saying, but it’s not just about not wanting to slow down. Where the trail crosses the entrance from the smaller lot to the larger parking lot makes for a hairy intersection that is overall probably less safe than just riding through the parking lot. Coming north, for instance, you have to negotiate a 90 degree right hand turn that may or may not have peds/other bikes in it, then immediately cross the parking lot entrance that may or may not have cars coming from BOTH directions, then negotiate another 90 degree turn to the left, where again peds/other bikes may or may not be present. Cutting through the parking lot, on the other hand, is a straight shot that has cyclists negotiating the parking lot in the same manner that cars do (yielding to peds at the crossing, looking out for reversing cars, etc…) and is something cyclists generally are used to. And that parking lot is cramped so I feel drivers are generally cautious. So for me, the parking lot is safer than the trail because it involves fewer variables. Convenience is a secondary complaint.

Okay. For me, I think it would depend on how busy the parking lot is. If it’s full of cars and peds and people getting in and out, and cyclists, it can get hairy. Cars backing out, like you said. I feel better with opposing traffic at 90 degree angles and nothing to cut off visibility for me or the cars.

Another problem is cyclists coming on or off the path at different places. You don’t always know their intentions.

[Drewdane]

@baiskeli 44511 wrote:

But I thought you just said they were.

What’s the advantage of the parking lot?

I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. To answer your question though, I refer you to the posts by Dasgeh and TwoWheelsDC – I can’t improve on what they wrote.

[NickBull]

@baiskeli 44512 wrote:

Okay, that’s the different perspective (literally) I needed.

How often, exactly, do you ride through this area? Your replies earlier in this thread make it seem like you actually know what you are talking about. But your replies later in the thread, e.g. this one make it seem like all your earlier comments are just theoretical and not based on personal experience.

I ride through here every day. “dasgeh”‘s post of 2/22 at 5:09 pm pretty-well sums up the hazards. Riding through the parking lot is a straight shot with no hard-to-see hazards. Trying to follow the trail is considerably more hazardous, particularly if there are oncoming bicycles and cars. You have to look three directions at once, some of them occluded by trees. In a ten-mile ride to and fro work, the most hazardous locations in order are the crossing at Lynn Street near the Key Marriott, the Roosevelt Island parking lot, the Bridge of Death, and the S-Curve of Death.

Nick

[baiskeli]

@NickBull 44651 wrote:

How often, exactly, do you ride through this area? Your replies earlier in this thread make it seem like you actually know what you are talking about. But your replies later in the thread, e.g. this one make it seem like all your earlier comments are just theoretical and not based on personal experience.

I ride through here every day. “dasgeh”‘s post of 2/22 at 5:09 pm pretty-well sums up the hazards. Riding through the parking lot is a straight shot with no hard-to-see hazards. Trying to follow the trail is considerably more hazardous, particularly if there are oncoming bicycles and cars. You have to look three directions at once, some of them occluded by trees. In a ten-mile ride to and fro work, the most hazardous locations in order are the crossing at Lynn Street near the Key Marriott, the Roosevelt Island parking lot, the Bridge of Death, and the S-Curve of Death.

Nick

I’ve probably ridden through it hundreds, or thousands, of times, since the late 1980s.

We all have a different idea about what hazards are. To me, a parking lot, with cars possibly driving around or blindly backing out of a space, has plenty of potential hazards. Then there are people in the parking lot, walking in and out or between cars, who might not see you or expect you.

The trail is a straight shot too, except for the turn to cross. I don’t think the turn after the cross is a big deal, since you’ve already crossed – it’s just a turn in the trail. So that’s one hairy turn where you have to look carefully before crossing. The little hollow for the tree sucks, as do the roots. Other than that, I don’t see it as a big problem compared to a parking lot. When the parking lot is pretty much empty, like in the morning or on cold days, it wouldn’t be a big deal.

We all have different ideas about what’s the worst hazards. I guess that depends on how we prefer to ride, or our past experiences. That’s the “different perspective” I was talking about – someone else’s judgement of the situation and why they think what they think.

[mstone]

It’s a tiny lot. If it isn’t empty, nobody can “fly out” without hitting another car opposite from them, which motorists do try to avoid.

[baiskeli]

@mstone 44666 wrote:

It’s a tiny lot. If it isn’t empty, nobody can “fly out” without hitting another car opposite from them, which motorists do try to avoid.

You’re saying cars in a parking lot can’t be a hazard to bikes? That motorists are always scrupulously careful when driving?

Yes, it’s a small lot, which is another reason I find it the greater hazard.

And I didn’t even say “fly out.”

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