Missed connection

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 148153 wrote:

We need to decide which MUT segments are of such importance to ped transportation to be deemed sidewalk equivalents. Where they are, street lights make sense. Where they are not, wearing of reflective gear makes sense.

Note I also ride relatively slowly at all times, and at night ride more slowly – but even so ninja peds add stress, and rather more so than animals or potholes. At least to me.

Totally agree. I’ve noticed that the flood lights on the Custis in Rosslyn have made that route so much more comfortable.

Though I’d add that in general, the trails need to be designed for the speed people ride – 12-18 MPH. Like roads, it’s appropriate to have a few CLEARLY MARKED areas where the safest speed is slower, but not so many that the avg safe speed is less than 12mph.

[Tim Kelley]

@Steve O 148160 wrote:

What can we do? I think vicegrip’s approach is good: do what you can, education and blinkies/reflectors, with the small number you have interactions with.

So you want to help out? Come give out lights and reflective gear with BikeArlington next week after work. And take some home to give out to ninjas too!

Details: http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?11188-Lighten-Up-Arlington!-Light-Giveaway-Next-Week!&p=148172#post148172

[dkel]

Just found myself having a conversation with my son about having a light with him for his walk home from a Halloween party tonight. He’ll be on the sidewalks in our neighborhood, not on an MUP. Maybe we can’t expect pedestrians simply to have a light for walking around at night…but maybe we should, for everyone’s benefit.

[Vicegrip]

@Tim Kelley 148173 wrote:

So you want to help out? Come give out lights and reflective gear with BikeArlington next week after work. And take some home to give out to ninjas too!

Details: http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?11188-Lighten-Up-Arlington!-Light-Giveaway-Next-Week!&p=148172#post148172

And teach the reformed night walkers to inform the other night walkers! Invest in Compound information.

[Vicegrip]

@Steve O 148160 wrote:

This discussion has illuminated (haha) two groups: those who feel pedestrians are obligated to wear reflective clothing or otherwise make themselves visible and those who do not believe–although that would be great–they should be obligated to do so.

Fair enough. However, no matter how much we discuss this here, they will continue to exist and every October we will have this discussion all over again.
What can we do? I think vicegrip’s approach is good: do what you can, education and blinkies/reflectors, with the small number you have interactions with. It’s small, but if many of us help, then over time we may be able to influence the culture. That is, as peds see everyone else making themselves visible, they may decide to do it, too.
It doesn’t help us so much with the non-regulars, but it’s more useful than our whining about it among ourselves.

This is my thinking. We should inform and make it better for all forms of travel. If the informed adjust by only slowing down then those of us that don’t slow down will hit those of us that dress in blackout face it upthere will always be some uninformed trail users. If the local nightly ninja sees everyone else with a blinkie perhaps he will see the light.

[mstone]

@EasyRider 148158 wrote:

Putting aside that crosswalks and sidewalks are ordinarily lit and have the word “walk” in them …

I think I’ve steered the thread off course. Sorry. But I think I’ve stated my position plainly. In the winter months, avoiding ninjas (read: fitness oriented pedestrians without reflectors or lights) are a nightly occurrence for every bike commuter on this forum. The suddenly fallen tree … the out of towner who decided to walk down the MVT in the dark instead of taking a cab to DCA … the squirrel out past bedtime … these are comparatively rare. I appreciate hearing cyclists stick up for a pedestrian’s right to go unseen, but it’s not where I’m at. Over and out.

So here’s where I’m at. Sometimes i have trouble seeing people. Sometimes I just see disembodied shoes (with reflective pulls) a couple hundred feet up the trail and I wish I could see a whole person. But never have I actually run into someone on a trail because I couldn’t see them. I suspect that for some the invisible pedestrian is their version of the suicidal cyclist red light blower: something that exists more in anecdote than in reality. There are so many stories about dangerous idiot cyclists who’d be dead if not for the heroic efforts of the story teller that we’d have a lot more dead cyclists if even a fraction of the stories were completely true rather than embellished for effect or out of ignorance. If you have enough light to safely ride the trail, you have enough light to see people on the trail. Even if you really, really, really want to bitch about another tribe.

Since the chance of all pedestrians growing a neon glow is basically zero, just get a better light and move on. Or continue to complain for entertainment value, fully in on the joke.

[dkel]

@mstone 148183 wrote:

Or continue to complain for entertainment value, fully in on the joke.

I see you’ve been on this forum before…

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 148183 wrote:

So here’s where I’m at. Sometimes i have trouble seeing people. Sometimes I just see disembodied shoes (with reflective pulls) a couple hundred feet up the trail and I wish I could see a whole person. But never have I actually run into someone on a trail because I couldn’t see them. I suspect that for some the invisible pedestrian is their version of the suicidal cyclist red light blower: something that exists more in anecdote than in reality. There are so many stories about dangerous idiot cyclists who’d be dead if not for the heroic efforts of the story teller that we’d have a lot more dead cyclists if even a fraction of the stories were completely true rather than embellished for effect or out of ignorance. If you have enough light to safely ride the trail, you have enough light to see people on the trail. Even if you really, really, really want to bitch about another tribe.

Since the chance of all pedestrians growing a neon glow is basically zero, just get a better light and move on. Or continue to complain for entertainment value, fully in on the joke.

Yah know what? Cyclists who blow red lights (not Idaho them, I know the difference ) and who count on motorists to miss them, are jerks, despite the fact they are not suicidal. Ditto ninja pedestrians. It’s not nice for cyclists to give good motorists heart attacks, and it’s not nice for pedestrians to give good cyclists heart attacks.

But then I don’t blow reds (and basically don’t Idaho them except at T intersections ) and when I walk on MUTs afterm dark, I make a point to wear something reflective ( usually some of my bike stuff ).

[mstone]

@lordofthemark 148185 wrote:

Yah know what? Cyclists who blow red lights (not Idaho them, I know the difference )[/quote]

The motorists who complain generally don’t, and are completely certain that every cyclist zips into traffic on a continuous basis without looking, unaware of any danger and doing nothing to avoid the obvious risk. It isn’t true, but that’s the story; I heard it just the other day. (Never once do they wonder why all of these cyclists who are so close to death rarely die, must be because all drivers are alert all the time and not because the drivers are misunderstanding what’s going on.) As I’ve heard it, cyclists don’t know that the mere act of cycling near cars is inherently and unavoidably dangerous and puts motorists in a horrible position of having to worry about killing all the oblivious cyclists, just like pedestrians foolhardily walking on MUPs impose on cyclists.

Having to look where I’m going while cycling isn’t some unreasonable demand put upon me by an uncaring and heartless world, it’s just what one does. As has been pointed out before, even in a zombie apocalypse you’d have to watch out for squirrels and scattered axes and whatnot, even with nary a pedestrian in sight. Sure you might see more pedestrians in this non-zombie-apocalypse world than you do other road hazards, but THAT’S BECAUSE YOU SEE THEM. I know, I know, nobody goes to the MUPs anymore because it’s just too crowded.

All that said, my personal recommendation is that people make themselves as visible as possible as a courtesy to others and to improve their own safety. But it’s pretty much the opposite of courteous to get pissed off at someone because they aren’t being courteous enough.

And none of this applies to ninja crazy ivans–those people are the devil.

[dkel]

@mstone 148187 wrote:

As I’ve heard it, cyclists don’t know that the mere act of cycling near cars is inherently and unavoidably dangerous and puts motorists in a horrible position of having to worry about killing all the oblivious cyclists

Oh, man. I got this from my mother (of all places) just the other day. She was so worried about cyclists on Annandale Road, she decided that cyclists should be banned from that street. Not like those that pose a danger to cyclists should bear any responsibility for the situation…because cars.

Reality check: @Arlingtonrider, please don’t tell my mother I was complaining about her here! :p

[mstone]

@dkel 148191 wrote:

Oh, man. I got this from my mother (of all places) just the other day. She was so worried about cyclists on Annandale Road, she decided that cyclists should be banned from that street.

I will refrain from saying whether my mother has expressed such sentiments because everybody is on the internet these days.

[ShawnoftheDread]

@dkel 148191 wrote:

Oh, man. I got this from my mother (of all places) just the other day. She was so worried about cyclists on Annandale Road, she decided that cyclists should be banned from that street. Not like those that pose a danger to cyclists should bear any responsibility for the situation…because cars.

Reality check: @Arlingtonrider, please don’t tell my mother I was complaining about her here! :p

You can tell your dear mother that I worry about her too, what with how her fellow motorists swerve in and out of the bike lane on Annandale all the time. She needs to be careful sharing the road with people who are obviously drunk at 7 am.

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 148187 wrote:

The motorists who complain generally don’t,

Ah, but I do, because I am both a driver and a cyclist. (And not a once every few months drive to a trail cyclist either.

And there in your parallel falls apart. Fewer than 2 percent of drivers are regular cyclists. While the percentage of cyclists who jog may that low, many more walk on the trails regularly for transport or recreation. Almost all do so occasionally, when they have bike issue they cannot fix trailside. We can see both sides, as most motorists cannot.

[Vicegrip]

@mstone 148183 wrote:

So here’s where I’m at. Sometimes i have trouble seeing people. Sometimes I just see disembodied shoes (with reflective pulls) a couple hundred feet up the trail and I wish I could see a whole person. But never have I actually run into someone on a trail because I couldn’t see them. I suspect that for some the invisible pedestrian is their version of the suicidal cyclist red light blower: something that exists more in anecdote than in reality. There are so many stories about dangerous idiot cyclists who’d be dead if not for the heroic efforts of the story teller that we’d have a lot more dead cyclists if even a fraction of the stories were completely true rather than embellished for effect or out of ignorance. If you have enough light to safely ride the trail, you have enough light to see people on the trail. Even if you really, really, really want to bitch about another tribe.

Since the chance of all pedestrians growing a neon glow is basically zero, just get a better light and move on. Or continue to complain for entertainment value, fully in on the joke.

As seen by the Winnie the poo characters. Winnie goes “Oh bother” and continues on the “bother” unchanged. Piglet stays home under a blanket. Eeyore gripes that it will never change, does nothing but point out to others that nothing will help. Tigger bounces along, spreads the word making some small effort / change and a few smiles while still enjoying himself with what he likes to do.

A stronger light is not always the answer for a few reasons. One is the air we ride in is not always clear. Mist, rain and fog limit what a light can do. Another is that oncoming bikes have lights that shine at us limiting our vision. There is a real simple answer that is shown to work well on all conditions on all trails year round with no infrastructure requirements. When on a multi use trail where you will see runners, joggers and riders make yourself visible in the conditions you are in. as you pointed out even the shoe tabs makes a notable improvement. To the chronic ninjas I used to say “Get a light” as I went by. Now I slow to a walking pace and say “Have a light”

[mstone]

@Vicegrip 148200 wrote:

As seen by the Winnie the poo characters. Winnie goes “Oh bother” and continues on the “bother” unchanged. Piglet stays home under a blanket. Eeyore gripes that it will never change, does nothing but point out to others that nothing will help. Tigger bounces along, spreads the word making some small effort / change and a few smiles while still enjoying himself with what he likes to do.

A stronger light is not always the answer for a few reasons. One is the air we ride in is not always clear. Mist, rain and fog limit what a light can do. Another is that oncoming bikes have lights that shine at us limiting our vision. There is a real simple answer that is shown to work well on all conditions on all trails year round with no infrastructure requirements. When on a multi use trail where you will see runners, joggers and riders make yourself visible in the conditions you are in. as you pointed out even the shoe tabs makes a notable improvement. To the chronic ninjas I used to say “Get a light” as I went by. Now I slow to a walking pace and say “Have a light”

And you will never, ever change the world on this. So as a cyclist it will remain your responsibility to not hit people, by whatever means necessary. If the pedestrians are courteous they’ll make it easier on you but it’s still your responsibility. If the conditions are bad it’s on you to slow down, not for them to glow like a new born sun.

Note that a better light is more effective, not “brighter”. But if someone with a badly aimed flashlight nails you and your eyes are unable to adjust, you guessed it–gonna have to slow down again. I’d love enforceable headlight standards but that’s something else that’s never going to happen so we’ll need to just deal with reality as it is.

Alternatively, if this is just about dreaming of impossible things, why set the bar at “all pedestrians will be well lit” and not something better like “always sunny, clear, and 65 degrees”? Tigger seems a bit of an underachiever.

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