Missed connection

[lordofthemark]

@Crickey7 101800 wrote:

I guess I am uncomfortable with the notion that it’s okay to shame those who didn’t stop. As others have said, they may have their own reasons not to, like pressing schedules, lack of tools or skills, or plain awkwardness. And while it’s more important to stop for a rider who is in distress or looking flummoxed, or in a remote location or late at night, none of those came into play here. Nothing wrong with stopping, to be sure. But I’m going to save my outrage for situations other than a rider who didn’t need help not being offered any for a couple of minutes.

Almost everyone I see trying to fix their bike appears to be more skilled at bike repair than myself, so I only ask if they need help if I think the issue might be injury or distress to the rider, not the bike (I may have missed the opportunity to hold someone’s bike up for them while they fixed it, but I can live with that). Plus most places I ride I there are a zillion more skilled riders than myself going past. If I saw someone stopped in a less traveled place, I guess I would be more inclined to offer help. Of course I don’t mind when someone offers me help, though I think there was only one time I actually needed it (it was a flat, and the person offering to help did not have a pump anyway)

[cyclingfool]

@jabberwocky 101801 wrote:

If I see someone obviously dealing with a mechanical issue, I’ll slow down and ask if they have everything they need. I’ve helped several people (mostly in my old commuting-on-the-W&OD days) with minor adjustments or flat tires. If they look like they have everything in hand I generally leave them to it though. I’ve found that most people offer to help when I’ve stopped to deal with something, which I appreciated even when I had it under control. I don’t really mind when people don’t offer though.

I, too, normally slow down and see if I can help in some way unless I’m super late trying to get somewhere. Spring of 2013, the day after I finished the initial build of my current bike, I came across a stranded cyclist near Gravelly Point. I slowed and offered assistance. Her rear derailleur was FUBAR. Still in bike mechanic mode from the night before, I shortened her chain enough to and put it on a middle-ish cog in he back and MacGyver a crude single speed bike by bypassing the RD completely so she could at least make it to work in Pentagon City and get it to a bike shop for more help. I still see her regularly on my commute now and we still say hi/nod/wave/smile as we pass each other. Helping out, when needed or desired, can really help to build community. At least it did in my case. I think it’s always a nice gesture.

[rcannon100]

When I played ultimate frisbee, I was 6’5″. I was a Long, which is sorta the same as being a receiver in football. The only way most people could stop me from catching a frisbee was to take my knees out. Not incredibly fun, and frankly I stopped playing with noobs for that particular reason. Anyway, on one occasion, a ‘friend’ decided to employ that particular defensive tactic. I was knocked unconscious. The Wife, being a good New Yorker, still did not have a drivers license. So some other ‘friends’ found the various pieces of me that were laying about the field, taped me back together, and drove me, The Wife, and my Chevy Nova (great car) to Arlington Hospital where I received 8 stitches right above the eye.

To me its above paying it forward. Many many people have stopped to offer me assistance. I am glad to pay it forward. I have taped a few members of this forum back together. And I have helped a lot of strangers.

It is not out of guilt or ‘a need to do something’ – feeling guilty if I cant help a person in need (when in fact I am not helping a person in need, I am just placating my own conscious). If I, as an experienced cyclist, am sitting beside the trail, with tire irons, a pump and a tube repairing a flat ~ everyone asking me if I am okay ~ well its gets damn right annoying after a while. Especially if I am trying to concentrate on whatever I am doing and not responding and the person passing offers help and then gets offended that I did not even have the common courtesy to answer.

Look. Put your white-liberal-guilt away. The compulsion to appear helpful in any given situation – ISNT HELPFUL. I was once on the side of the Custis repairing a chain, covered top to bottom in grease. Three pretty little teenagers came up and asked if they could help. And again, I was right in the middle of the repair and again would have preferred to be mindful of the flywheel which was precariously close to piercing my fingers.

But I had to respond to this one. It was too absurd. I looked up and asked “I dont know, can you? Do you know anything about bike repair?” “Well no…..” “Then why are you interrupting me?”

Saying stupid things like “I would rather do this in every situation” or whatever is exactly the point. Do you want to help?? Then lets start with the premise – helping isnt about you. Its not about what you would rather do in every situation. Its not about making you feel like a good samaritan. It is about helping.

So now – take a two second test. Does the person who you are observing indicate in any way that they need help? Are they limping across the 14th St bridge with a flat tire (that was last week). Are they on the cork screw at Roosevelt with a jammed chain, crying like a child (that was me about two years ago). Are they sitting quietly beside the trail with tire irons in hand, neatly repairing the tire? Do they have more tools out on the ground than you have in your pocket?

I stop for people a lot. I pay it forward. A good portion of the time, I can tell I am just interrupting and I dont say anything. A good portion of the time, I give the standard “you good?” And a good portion of the time, I am late for dinner because I am teaching someone how to repair a flat or true a wheel.

And then there are the other times. I have to get to work. I have to get home to The Kid. I have to who knows…. but I cant stop. I dont judge people for not stopping. They are not my servants. And frankly, if I have a break down that I cant repair, I am a noob who needs to learn (to carry a patch kit and a multitool). I am not going to condescendingly judge people for not stopping. I have no knowledge of their lives, their skill sets. It is beyond presumptuous for me to declare that they fail my moral standards.

What do I know? Trail culture is tremendous. Last Dirt Ride, I decided to see how many different ways I could break The Kid’s Plastic Bike. Two people who know far more about bikes than I, nursed me along like a complete poseur. They fixed my seat. They helped fix my chain. They were the best and they reflect trail culture.

I have been riding these trails longer than these trails have existed. And I have been picked out of ditches, helped to the hospital, helped with my chain, on and on. I have taken blood covered cyclists home (no not The Kid). I have stood in the middle of the GW to stop traffic after a car hit a cyclists. I have fixed flat tires, fixed chains, and trued wheels. It’s karma. It is an amazing place we live and it is an amazing trail culture.

[dasgeh]

@dkel 101774 wrote:

I agree. This also makes me nervous, though, because someone out there will manage to make a genuine offer and come across as condescending. Times I’ve been the guy on the side of the road have always gotten my level of aggravation up just for the sake of being stuck on the side of the road; I have had to remind myself that my mood is totally apart from other people and their actions. It’s often more difficult to be charitable in receiving than in giving.

I think that if you (1) honestly are offering help; (2) because you really can help in this situation (i.e. have slowed to assess the situation at least a little and have the time, tools, skills to help); and (3) are nice in your phrasing, you shouldn’t worry so much about coming across as condescending. I mainly wanted to bring out this point so that people would look at it from that angle. And even if you don’t mean to be condescending, you should probably stay away from phrasing that involves the term “Honey”.

[lordofthemark]

@dasgeh 101813 wrote:

I think that if you (1) honestly are offering help; (2) because you really can help in this situation (i.e. have slowed to assess the situation at least a little and have the time, tools, skills to help); and (3) are nice in your phrasing, you shouldn’t worry so much about coming across as condescending. I mainly wanted to bring out this point so that people would look at it from that angle. And even if you don’t mean to be condescending, you should probably stay away from phrasing that involves the term “Honey”.

because while that MIGHT work as a lubricant (?) it would probably attract bees and other nasty insects. OTOH if someone had “hit the wall” and needed quick carbs and nothing else was available …..

[jabberwocky]

For me, I’d always give stopped riders a look. If they have the tube and pump out and obviously have things well in hand, I leave them alone. If someone is pushing a bike with a flat along the side of the trail, I’ll slow down and ask if they want a tube or help changing the tire. In between, I try and use my judgement, but probably err on the side of asking if they need help if I’m not sure, just because I’d feel bad riding right past someone who I could have helped. I usually just call out something like “everything ok?”, or “got everything you need?” or similar. I had a few times riding to work where I was short on time where I just gave someone a patch real quick.

I do remember a few years back I had gone out in the summer to do an exploratory ride with Dirt (this was while he was putting together the KB century and was exploring hills). I was utterly not in shape for it and it was one of those summer days where it was pushing 100 degrees. On the way back to Reston I started getting dizzy and lightheaded and pulled over on the side of the trail to let it pass. I laid in the grass for maybe 20 minutes, and I think almost every person who walked or rode by asked if I was ok. A bit annoying in a way, sure, but it was really nice that to know that most people wouldn’t just ignore someone obviously suffering on the side of the trail.

[Drewdane]

@dasgeh 101768 wrote:

My point is that when the repairs are minor (eg if you see someone adjusting their quick release seat height) and the person looks fine, it’s similarly patronizing.

But my original point was that the guy shouldn’t get offended that people didn’t offer help while he was dealing with minor repairs. Even if you think he shouldn’t get offended at the people that do offer help, you can’t really say the ones that don’t don’t have a “shred of decency”?

Am I being patronizing, or are you being defensive?

A) Who’s to tell at a glance while riding along if a repair is minor or not? Especially in the dark? In my case the other night, it was minor but looked ugly, and involved a certain amount of fiddling at awkward angles (my front fender got sucked up into the fork somehow :confused:).

Who’s to tell if a rider on the side of the path is properly equipped to handle a mechanical, minor or not? It may seem like an easy thing to an experienced cyclist, but I’ve ended up fixing a flat for a guy who was out on his hybrid for the first time after buying it – he had no pump, no patch kit, no tube, no idea (until it was too late) that he should have had them, and no idea how to use them anyway. If I hadn’t stopped to ask if he was okay, he would have had a long walk ahead of him.

I was offended, because it takes nothing – Not One Thing – to call out a quick “Are you ok?” as you pass by. You don’t have to stop, you don’t have to dismount, you don’t have to do anything more than call out. AFAIC, it’s not different than calling out your pass – it’s a basic courtesy.

And yes, basic courtesy requires a shred or two of decency.

@dasgeh 101773 wrote:

As long as offers of assistance are out of genuine generosity, fine, but too often, offers of assistance (in the world generally, not on the trail as much, though sometimes there too) are of the “you clearly can’t handle this on your own, Honey. Let me help you out.” variety. I think it’s appropriate to judge that.

It must be nice to be a mind reader.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 101813 wrote:

I think that if you (1) honestly are offering help; (2) because you really can help in this situation (i.e. have slowed to assess the situation at least a little and have the time, tools, skills to help); and (3) are nice in your phrasing, you shouldn’t worry so much about coming across as condescending. I mainly wanted to bring out this point so that people would look at it from that angle. And even if you don’t mean to be condescending, you should probably stay away from phrasing that involves the term “Honey”.

#1 and #2 are only known to him though, not the potential helpee. So only #3 will affect how his offer is perceived.

[baiskeli]

The problem is that one can’t know if a male is condescendingly offering help to a female because she’s female, or just to help, unless you know if the male also offers help to other males. You’d have to follow him around and observe to make a conclusion. (Unless, of course, the offer itself is phrased in a condescending way that indicates sexism or uses actual sexist words.)

[Crickey7]

@Drewdane 101820 wrote:

And yes, basic courtesy requires a shred or two of decency. . .

It must be nice to be a mind reader.

So, you know the circumstances behind each of the 10 riders who failed to stop? There really are better things to spend one’s energy on than this. Like the driver last night who followed me for blocks shouting anti-gay slurs, for no reason I can tell other than I was on the same road as him.

[Drewdane]

@Drewdane 101714 wrote:

Me: stopped just short of the Intersection of Doom last night to fix a minor mechanical.

You: The approximately ten cyclists who rode right by without so much as a “You OK?” Wow! Self-absorbed much? I hope I never find myself in a situation where I actually need help for real if that’s what I can expect.

The two who displayed a shred of common decency are memorialized in the Found Connections thread.

Please excuse me for expressing annoyance in a thread that’s expressly designed for that purpose. My bad, I guess… :rolleyes:

[Anonymous]

@hozn 101771 wrote:

I have never taken offense by someone offering help when I am fixing a flat. But there has also never been a hint of patronization or condescension in those offers. I can imagine a different world for others (e.g. women cyclists).

@dkel 101774 wrote:

I agree. This also makes me nervous, though, because someone out there will manage to make a genuine offer and come across as condescending.

It’s possible to be both you know—genuinely wanting to help and also condescending. Just to make you even more nervous. Although it shouldn’t really, because all you have to do to not be condescending is to not assume the other person is incompetent. That’s pretty much it.

An offer of help is not in itself condescending. I wouldn’t, and haven’t, taken offense at an offer to help, even something simple like fixing a flat.

But, yeah, there are offers that then move into the condescending realm– Refusal to take no for an answer is (and depending on the situation can be creepy). So is physically taking someone else’s tools/gear out of their hands and taking over their repair for them. (I don’t remember this happening to me with bike issues but has multiple times with car issues) Also, it’s one thing to say once “you can take that to the bike shop and they’ll do X for you”. It’s another thing to say five times “now, be sure to take that to your LBS when you get home” (esp for a minor thing that is not an actual emergency or in danger of creating a catastrophic failure). (and I don’t really need anyone to explain to me what Loctite is, either).

I know these are small things, but repeated over decades it does get old. The common theme, here, though, is not the offer of help, but an assumption that I don’t know what I’m doing, and can’t be trusted to do it myself. And quite frankly I don’t really care which of them were condescending because I am female and which were just people who assume everyone else is incompetent. I am sure there have been some of both, and they’re all annoying. If you are offering with an assumption that the other person is competent and might just find an extra hand helpful or be missing the right tool, you are probably not in much danger of offending. It’s the people who deep down (or maybe right on the surface) assume I am incompetent and am going to do it wrong if they don’t do it for me who come across as condescending—because that is a condescending assumption, even if they are also genuinely trying to help.

[Crickey7]

Someone did stop. So it worked out, though you didn’t even need help.

I’ve had situations where no one stopped. I once spent a half hour covered with blood from an unstoppable nosebleed on the side of a busy road. No one stopped. I wiped out in front of a line of cars another time. No one so much as cracked a window. You got a 10% help rate. I’d have taken that gladly.

[rcannon100]

@Crickey7 101824 wrote:

So, you know the circumstances behind each of the 10 riders who failed to stop?

This / /

@Crickey7 101830 wrote:

You got a 10% help rate. I’d have taken that gladly.

Actually, 17%.

[Geoff]

@dasgeh 101813 wrote:

I think that if you (1) honestly are offering help; (2) because you really can help in this situation (i.e. have slowed to assess the situation at least a little and have the time, tools, skills to help); and (3) are nice in your phrasing, you shouldn’t worry so much about coming across as condescending. I mainly wanted to bring out this point so that people would look at it from that angle. And even if you don’t mean to be condescending, you should probably stay away from phrasing that involves the term “Honey”.

I only needed help trailside once. My chain had broken and fallen off. The guy who stopped was a self-confessed noobie who had never seen a chain tool – but he knew how to hold a flashlight, and that was all I needed.

But now a sore point of mine. If a guy addressing a female as “honey” is horrible sexism, why do various women half my age working in stores and whatnot feel perfectly free to address me that way?

[Author]

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