Let’s talk about e scooters

[lordofthemark]

I mean yeah, I know we are the BIKE forum, but really, I can’t think of a better informed group of people to talk about this with.

Lets NOT talk about where they should be parked (which is the same argument, almost, as the dockless bikes) or whether they should be used on certain crowded trails (a similar argument to the ebike argument, I guess). I want to talk about riding them on streets, in bike lanes, on sidewalks (yup, though I haven’t, yet) in more or less urban areas. (there was already some discussion in the dockless bikes thread, but I think it will get lost there)

Personally while I found riding one interesting, I think I would always prefer a bike, dockless or CaBi, human powered or electric, over a scooter. I found starting it awkward, footing awkward, and hard to get used to having only the one brake, and how the hell do I signal? OTOH I think that is both because I am an “avid” cyclist (so don’t find mounting or dismounting a bike to be a big deal at all) and because as someone born back in the good old days, I missed the scooter craze (and snow board craze, and never did skate boards) So riding with my feet flat down like that is not natural, and the kick to get started is not natural.

Where to ride – I tried it around the Capital Riverfront area – so quiet, griddy streets, and relatively empty bike lanes. Felt odd riding (and esp making left turns) “vehicularly” but that is what you are supposed to do, I guess?

They are not supposed to be used on sidewalks, per Limebike, though I gather its legal to use scooters on sidewalks (does the CBD sidewalk ban apply to scooters as well as bikes). I did not violate that rule, but there are places I would be tempted to.

It said you should wear a helmet. I did not, and gather most users do not?

You could “pause” your ride, which is a fascinating feature. Though I chose not to use it.

I trust we all welcome them into bike lanes? I mean I don’t know about the actual crowded bike lanes (like 15th Street) but I sure think more use of our infra is good (surprise!) and they seem compatible. And, ONE LESS CAR.

Seems like one benefit is you can ride them without fear of getting your clothes caught or dirty with a chain – but all the bike share bikes have chain guards, maybe?

Topic

[lordofthemark]

@peterw_diy 191424 wrote:

Exactly. This is one of the big problems with dockless – it’s virtually impossible to hold anyone accountable for bad parking or vandalism of the devices. Thus the obstructions and short service life.

They can geofence some areas, but that is limited by the accuracy of GPS.

[mstone]

@phog 191430 wrote:

The brushless motor controllers in the rental scooters are sophisticated and programmable by the company for capping top speed, acceleration, setting a charge rate to the battery management board, setting degree of regenerative braking and when it engages, whether the scooter needs to be rolling (and how fast) before the motor will engage, and more.
There are high end e-scooters like the Nanrobot LS7 or RS11-11 that have huge range and go startlingly fast, at a premium price. That may be what you saw.
Rip out ALL the circuitry on a 36v, 300W rental bike, wire in extra cells to boost the battery to 52V, put in your own BMS and generic 48V, 300 watt controller, and you can make the thing move pretty fast for under $30. Not that I would endorse doing such a thing! And it would be primitive, throttle-only… you would no longer have all the refinements, like regenerative braking. Plus you would be driving the motor pretty hard. It could reduce the service life of the hub motor.

If they just invent scooter classes it would fix that problem, that seems to be the plan for ebikes/little electric motorcycles.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 191452 wrote:

If they just invent scooter classes it would fix that problem, that seems to be the plan for ebikes/little electric motorcycles.

We don’t really need multiple classes – just “meet these requirements and we’ll treat your scooter like a bike”

[sjclaeys]

@mstone 191412 wrote:

so if a kid moves your scooter you get a $25 bill?

Why not? Why does a sense of equity for a scooter user outweigh public safety?

[peterw_diy]

@sjclaeys 191533 wrote:

Why not? Why does a sense of equity for a scooter user outweigh public safety?

Shoot, why not fine anyone who walks past a poorly-parked scooter? Advocates seem to think it reasonable to expect Good Samaritans to fix parking problems; why not monetize the fact that some of us are too lazy and selfish to stop and fix scooter problems others created?

[mstone]

@sjclaeys 191533 wrote:

Why not? Why does a sense of equity for a scooter user outweigh public safety?

I’m not there, someone moves a scooter I’m done with, I get a fine…how does that in any way increase public safety? Should we also prosecute people for manslaughter if someone else steals their car and hits someone?

[mstone]

@dasgeh 191529 wrote:

We don’t really need multiple classes – just “meet these requirements and we’ll treat your scooter like a bike”

You’re right–I’m sure that’ll be exactly as effective in the long run!

[lordofthemark]

@mstone 191535 wrote:

I’m not there, someone moves a scooter I’m done with, I get a fine…how does that in any way increase public safety?

It doesn’t but at least it punishes the scooter users, who tend to be younger than the citizenry in general, are more often POC’s, and when they are white appear to be those “hipsters” who are ruining the country.

[dasgeh]

@mstone 191535 wrote:

I’m not there, someone moves a scooter I’m done with, I get a fine…how does that in any way increase public safety? Should we also prosecute people for manslaughter if someone else steals their car and hits someone?

More importantly, it would discourage scooter use, which would (according to the research Va Tech did in Arlington) increase the number of Uber/Lyft rides.

Same team, people, same team.

[sjclaeys]

@mstone 191535 wrote:

I’m not there, someone moves a scooter I’m done with, I get a fine…how does that in any way increase public safety? Should we also prosecute people for manslaughter if someone else steals their car and hits someone?

Ummm, if you leave the keys in the car, yes you can be held liable if someone steals it and kills someone.

https://www.ravellaw.com/opinions/ae980b2259288b51f4b5a6a20c13013c

[sjclaeys]

@dasgeh 191543 wrote:

More importantly, it would discourage scooter use, which would (according to the research Va Tech did in Arlington) increase the number of Uber/Lyft rides.

Same team, people, same team.

So when someone riding a bicycle like Leslie gets hurt because of a scooter left in a MUP, they should just be thankful that the person who left the scooter didn’t ride Uber/Lyft? I don’t want to be part of any team that will reject any suggestions to improve public safety because they can come up with unlikely factual scenarios and won’t give consideration to anything that could impinge on scooter use. You guys sound a lot like the NRA.

[dasgeh]

@sjclaeys 191560 wrote:

So when someone riding a bicycle like Leslie gets hurt because of a scooter left in a MUP, they should just be thankful that the person who left the scooter didn’t ride Uber/Lyft? I don’t want to be part of any team that will reject any suggestions to improve public safety because they can come up with unlikely factual scenarios and won’t give consideration to anything that could impinge on scooter use. You guys sound a lot like the NRA.

I am very glad that Leslie was not hit by a Uber/Lyft.

I’m all for efforts to increase public safety, if they, you know, increase public safety. Brainstorming ideas that could increase public safety is great, but if under examination, there’s an idea that would lead to more car trips (i.e. decrease public safety), then we should call it out.

Other ideas that could address bad parking while not increasing car trips:
– require scooters to be reflective all over (not all black)
– require better kickstands
– establish more clear parking guidelines
– develop/require better systems to alert users when the scooters are going to run out of battery
– develop/require better systems to pick up scooters that have run out of battery
– develop/require better systems for “sweeping” the trails for scooters.

[sjclaeys]

@dasgeh 191563 wrote:

I am very glad that Leslie was not hit by a Uber/Lyft.

OK, so in the scenario that a cyclist hits a scooter left in a MUP and is seriously injured, your response is that you’re glad they weren’t hit by a Uber/Lyft?

[lordofthemark]

@sjclaeys 191560 wrote:

So when someone riding a bicycle like Leslie gets hurt because of a scooter left in a MUP, they should just be thankful that the person who left the scooter didn’t ride Uber/Lyft? I don’t want to be part of any team that will reject any suggestions to improve public safety because they can come up with unlikely factual scenarios and won’t give consideration to anything that could impinge on scooter use. You guys sound a lot like the NRA.

I think we should improve safety on the trails, so that does not happen. We need a way to gather scooters improperly left on the bridges, MVT, etc, whether private juicers or the companies doing it. They probably need trailers pulled by ebikes to collect them – if NPS can’t see their way to legalizing even class 3 ebikes on the trails, they could grant a waiver to ones run by the scooter companies for scooter collection. They may need to do pick up on the bridges and trails cooperatively – IE not Spin collecting Spin scooters, Bird collecting Bird, etc, but they may all need to go in together. Another possibility (I am not a techie, just brainstorming) would be geofencing combined with battery charge data – so one could not take a scooter onto a bridge if one did not have the juice to get to the other side and beyond the trail.

If ebike changes can’t work, maybe the scooter companies need to pay to have someone pull a trailer with a regular bike. That will be expensive, but if its needed for safety so be it. If the scooters are profitable enough to bear the cost, fine, if not the scooter companies will have to geofence them from the bridges and trails. If that means dockless scooters play a lesser role in our multimodal future than hoped, again, so be it.

But these are ideas to address the problem, not an attempt to either discourage scooter use in general, or to punish scooter riders.

[dasgeh]

@lordofthemark 191575 wrote:

I think we should improve safety on the trails, so that does not happen. We need a way to gather scooters improperly left on the bridges, MVT, etc, whether private juicers or the companies doing it. They probably need trailers pulled by ebikes to collect them – if NPS can’t see their way to legalizing even class 3 ebikes on the trails, they could grant a waiver to ones run by the scooter companies for scooter collection. They may need to do pick up on the bridges and trails cooperatively – IE not Spin collecting Spin scooters, Bird collecting Bird, etc, but they may all need to go in together.

I just saw the LYFT trike when I was out for a run today. Rider was so nice.

[Author]

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