Is the Lynn/Lee Hwy intersection in Rosslyn safer?

[huskerdont]

@PotomacCyclist 129968 wrote:

Many drivers would likely ignore such a right-turn ban unless police were there almost non-stop.

Case in point here just up the trail at both Ft. Meyer Drive and Oak Street. Both are no-turn-on-red and both routinely have cars run the red. As a cyclist coming down the hill with speed, these are dangerous points that need to be navigated carefully.

If right turn on red were repealed everywhere, these would be reduced. It can be easy to miss the relatively rare no-turn-on-red signs.

[scoot]

@PotomacCyclist 129968 wrote:

Instead of just prohibiting right turns off that ramp, VDOT could remove that ramp altogether.

I had not considered closing access to westbound Lee Hwy from that ramp as well, but after thinking about it, I agree with you. That movement also seems unnecessary. There would still be easy access to Rosslyn from either source. If coming from the TR Bridge, just follow 50 and exit at Lynn Street (or go via Georgetown as you describe). If coming from 110, use Wilson Blvd.

I agree that enforcement would be essential if the ramp were open while right turns were banned, but that would be very easy to do by camera.

[runbike]

@scoot 129979 wrote:

I had not considered closing access to westbound Lee Hwy from that ramp as well, but after thinking about it, I agree with you. That movement also seems unnecessary. There would still be easy access to Rosslyn from either source. If coming from the TR Bridge, just follow 50 and exit at Lynn Street (or go via Georgetown as you describe). If coming from 110, use Wilson Blvd.

I agree that enforcement would be essential if the ramp were open while right turns were banned, but that would be very easy to do by camera.

Or how bout we just build a tunnel and separate modes? I think you all are underestimating how many drivers coming up from 395/Alexandria and other points south use that right turn off the ramp to reach Georgetown and other points in upper NW DC. Could you close it down and force people to take alternate routes? Sure. But then downtown Rosslyn would be a grid-locked NIGHTMARE, not to mention what it’d do to traffic on TR, Memorial bridges.

Not that I don’t get some smug satisfaction from the idea of drivers backed up for miles while I ride on by, but in the end it just means more frustrated and angry drivers that we’ll come across on a day to day basis. So instead of getting all complicated, let’s push for mode separation via a tunnel (or flyover bridge…I don’t care) that allows everyone to be a winner.

[Steve O]

Many of you have seen this before, but in case you haven’t, it’s a solution that addresses virtually all the problems with this intersection:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/12248/redesign-could-improve-dangerous-rosslyn-intersection/

It does not require any new bridges or tunnels. Dave Goodman has proposed a very similar solution that includes a bridge over the trail rather than using the existing ped/bike bridge. His solution has the advantage of not requiring coordination with NPS.

[huskerdont]

@bentbike33 129970 wrote:

Huskerdont:

Scoot posted his, and wrote it better, while I was writing mine. I’m thinking the license plate distribution among the local jurisdictions for the IoD right turns looks different in the afternoon than morning. Understanding the source of the IoD right turners would be interesting. I’ve not tried to observe their destinations. Are any trying great numbers trying to cut across the lanes to exit onto GW Parkway, or are all basically headed over Key Bridge?

Would be interesting to see the distribution for different times of day. I have noted few drivers crossing all the lanes to get to the GW Parkway. I think most who turn right are going across Key.

[scoot]

@Steve O 130001 wrote:

Many of you have seen this before, but in case you haven’t, it’s a solution that addresses virtually all the problems with this intersection:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/12248/redesign-could-improve-dangerous-rosslyn-intersection/

I have read your solution before, and I strongly support it, although I did not remember the details when I posted yesterday.

Your solution throws a new bone to drivers heading for Key Bridge, while mine posits the unnecessity of a replacement. But essentially we have both proposed the exact same thing for the IOD itself: banning right turns. (Reconfiguring IOD as you describe it on GGW is a great idea regardless of whether or not the solution includes a new off-ramp.)

So it would be worth studying these options side-by-side in terms of:

– infrastructure expense
– enforcement expense
– safety for all modes
– travel times for all modes
– congestion on Rosslyn streets
– induced demand (account for how the overall traffic level through here would depend on the street configuration)
– politics

It’s not obvious to me up front which is a better engineering solution. If it turns out that the vast majority of IOD turners are in group B (110 to Key Bridge) and that they would choose to drive through Rosslyn were this option to become unavailable, that would certainly tilt the equation in favor of building the new ramp you have described.

For what it’s worth, I rarely traverse IOD eastbound or westbound, but I do frequently ride through it northbound (going from Lynn St headed to Key Bridge). I use the street until the driveway curb cut just past IOD, then I take the sidewalk over the bridge. Signalizing the entrance from GW Parkway (and possibly combining it with the one from 66) would clean up another dangerous crossing just north of IOD. Heading home, I make a left turn from M Street onto the upstream Key Bridge sidewalk, so I avoid IOD entirely then.

Long-term, we need protected bike lanes on Key Bridge between the sidewalks and the vehicle lanes. The existing sidewalks (especially the downstream one) are far too crowded with pedestrians to be comfortably shared with bicycles. And the street is a very poor alternative because it is always either a traffic jam or else the drivers greatly exceed the speed limit.

[scoot]

@run/bike 129981 wrote:

So instead of getting all complicated, let’s push for mode separation via a tunnel (or flyover bridge…I don’t care) that allows everyone to be a winner.

For a few reasons, I’m not a huge fan of grade separation for this intersection. First, it would require new infrastructure. Second, lots of bicycles are turning there too, so you’d need to maintain an at-grade crossing option regardless (which might itself become more dangerous with fewer people crossing at grade).

The new forward-looking vision for Rosslyn intends to replace the skywalks and car-oriented streets in favor of at-grade crosswalks and street-level retail. Moving bikes and peds off of street level is inconsistent with this vision.

[lordofthemark]

@Steve O 130001 wrote:

Many of you have seen this before, but in case you haven’t, it’s a solution that addresses virtually all the problems with this intersection:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/12248/redesign-could-improve-dangerous-rosslyn-intersection/

It does not require any new bridges or tunnels. Dave Goodman has proposed a very similar solution that includes a bridge over the trail rather than using the existing ped/bike bridge. His solution has the advantage of not requiring coordination with NPS.

I suspect that building the new road link required for that will be more expensive than a bike/ped bridge (or even tunnel?) though.

[lordofthemark]

@scoot 130023 wrote:

For a few reasons, I’m not a huge fan of grade separation for this intersection. First, it would require new infrastructure. Second, lots of bicycles are turning there too, so you’d need to maintain an at-grade crossing option regardless (which might itself become more dangerous with fewer people crossing at grade).

The new forward-looking vision for Rosslyn intends to replace the skywalks and car-oriented streets in favor of at-grade crosswalks and street-level retail. Moving bikes and peds off of street level is inconsistent with this vision.

The principal reason that skywalks are out of favor, from what I understand, is the difficulty with getting critical mass for pedestrian oriented retail when you divide pedestrians between street level and skywalk level – the other I think is fear of crime on skywalks. At least the first reason is not likely to be a consideration for an IoD solution.

[huskerdont]

If it does go grade-separated, the key thing is for the overpass/tunnel to be placed where people can conveniently use it. If it’s not well situated or is just for the convenience of motorists, people will still take the path of least resistance. A for instance is the overpass of Rt. 50 at 7 Corners, where it was so much easier to just dangerously cross the road that they had to put up fencing to get people to use the overpass. Since there are so many different directions and modes at play at the IOD, I can see that happening here as well. If a tunnel is dank and dangerous, people will not use it. If a flyover is out of the way, covered with snow and ice, or, for cyclists, narrow and filled with pedestrians, people will still use the grade crossing.

[dasgeh]

@PotomacCyclist 129968 wrote:

Instead of just prohibiting right turns off that ramp, VDOT could remove that ramp altogether. Many drivers would likely ignore such a right-turn ban unless police were there almost non-stop. It’s better to rely on infrastructure design than ongoing enforcement. So remove that ramp and right turns would be impossible.

As you mentioned, there are already alternatives for drivers who currently make that right turn.

One issue would be for drivers who are crossing TR Bridge to get onto Lee Hwy. These drivers are traveling from Foggy Bottom to Rosslyn. They can simply travel on I-66 North (in DC)/E St NW to the Whitehurst Freeway. They would have to turn onto M St in Georgetown for one block before turning onto Key Bridge. Once they cross Key Bridge, they can take Ft Myer Dr south and turn right onto Lee Hwy. The trip from Foggy Bottom to Lee Hwy would be slightly longer, but not to an extreme extent. Perhaps the length of Key Bridge. Drivers who are heading from Foggy Bottom to I-66 west would continue to have the same access as today. The only lanes that would be removed under this idea would be those that branch off from I-66 to Lee Hwy. It’s not a super-long stretch of road.

The ramp of which you speak is one of two for those using the TR Bridge non-HOV during HOV times. In other words, eliminating this ramp would force all non-HOV traffic onto the GWMP/Spout Run or Whitehurst/Key Bridge. That would be a HUGE, HUGE change. I’m all for moving the ramp (we need a light for the other crossing anyways), or even banning the right turn entirely, but closing the ramp entirely, without drastic improvement in other options… no way.

[dasgeh]

@huskerdont 130031 wrote:

If it does go grade-separated, the key thing is for the overpass/tunnel to be placed where people can conveniently use it. If it’s not well situated or is just for the convenience of motorists, people will still take the path of least resistance. A for instance is the overpass of Rt. 50 at 7 Corners, where it was so much easier to just dangerously cross the road that they had to put up fencing to get people to use the overpass. Since there are so many different directions and modes at play at the IOD, I can see that happening here as well. If a tunnel is dank and dangerous, people will not use it. If a flyover is out of the way, covered with snow and ice, or, for cyclists, narrow and filled with pedestrians, people will still use the grade crossing.

I hear you. On the other hand, we’ve studied the issue twice, and planned a tunnel. Any other solution is easily 15 years away. If NPS is involved…

[mstone]

let’s think a bit out of the box: how ’bout linking one of those security barrier things to the beg button, so that when pedestrians have the right of way, there’s a wall blocking the right turn?

[bentbike33]

@mstone 130043 wrote:

let’s think a bit out of the box:

How about a railroad-crossing-style gate that comes down with the “no-right-turn” signal? Added benefit: it would hit the tops of cars blocking the crosswalk.

[dasgeh]

@bentbike33 130046 wrote:

How about a railroad-crossing-style gate that comes down with the “no-right-turn” signal? Added benefit: it would hit the tops of cars blocking the crosswalk.

Do you know how many times I’ve fantasized about this while dodging around box-blocking cars…

[Author]

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