Is the Lynn/Lee Hwy intersection in Rosslyn safer?

[Raymo853]

@KLizotte 129907 wrote:

I don’t ride through there during weekday rush hour but have found that the no turn on red sign to be very useful! Now if only we could get the same thing at the next intersection heading west on the Custis.

I am up for getting rid of right turn on red everywhere for all times. I am old enough to remember the fights over it’s introduction and was not convinced then as a child and am still not.

[Rootchopper]

And at 19th and Lynn in Rosslyn.

[mstone]

@DismalScientist 129929 wrote:

A stoplight by definition intermittently regulates behavior. Furthermore, a red arrow at the bottom of the stack is nor likely to be “seen” than an X over arrow that is not part of traffic light stack.

Proper signage is a different question than what the rules should be.

1) It turns out that there actually is ambiguity over the meaning of a right red arrow.

2) I don’t think that a right red arrow that comes on “sometimes” is going to work any better than the sign.

3) The real solution is to ban right turns on red, all the time, so that drivers don’t have to remember to check the light after checking to see that there’s no traffic coming (because that will never happen, because it’s counter to every instinct the driver has based on experience at any other intersection in the country that allows right turn on red–in general the state of the light is irrelevant in a right turn on red situation, so drivers know not to waste time checking it).

[Steve O]

@mstone 129935 wrote:

The real solution is to ban right turns, all the time. . .

I like this. No right on green either.

Might back traffic up a bit, though.

[Steve O]

@DismalScientist 129929 wrote:

Furthermore, a red arrow at the bottom of the stack is nor likely to be “seen” than an X over arrow that is not part of traffic light stack.

I actually disagree with this. I believe a right arrow that flashes yellow while the straight is green and is solid red otherwise would be more noticeable. Flashing yellow during the green phase might alert drivers to pay attention while they are turning, in fact.

What I’m not sure about is how it should behave during times when (if?) right on red is permitted. I can’t think of a good way to remove all ambiguity.

Regardless of whether any changes to the signals are made, better signage is still needed to “educate” drivers about what they should be doing.

[huskerdont]

@PotomacCyclist 129903 wrote:

https://www.arlnow.com/2015/12/16/video-collisions-down-at-rosslyns-intersection-of-doom/

According to the ARLnow article, the “Intersection of Doom” has dropped out of the top 25 (on the list of intersections with the most frequent traffic incidents). If so, that’s pretty amazing.

I only pass by there occasionally, so I don’t have any first-hand experience of the changes. What do others have to report? Did they largely fix the issues through better signal timing?

It’s definitely better, but you can’t just trust that folks will see the no-turn arrow and stop. It’s a nonstandard traffic signal that is dark until the light changes and people aren’t really looking for it. So, always be on your guard and you might be okay.

[mstone]

@Steve O 129936 wrote:

I like this. No right on green either.

Might back traffic up a bit, though.

There is a solution for that, which is the dedicated green arrow cycle, if needed.

[scoot]

No traffic signal should ever feature a phase where right-on-red is permitted followed by one where right-on-red is prohibited.

When drivers pull up to the stop line at a red signal where right-on-red is permitted, they immediately look to their left for gaps in traffic. If they see one, they go. If there is no gap, they go when they see the cross-traffic stopping because the light is changing. (A few exemplary drivers are so conscientious as to glance to their right for pedestrians also.) But one place they will not look is back up at the signal. Because at pretty much any intersection other than this one, there is no reason to do so.

A full ban on right-on-red here is needed.

[Subby]

wheels hits it on the head. Improvements are great there but they don’t really go far enough when it’s dark.

[scoot]

Here’s an alternate thought: how about completely prohibiting right turns from this off-ramp? Cars exiting the freeway would be required to go straight up Lee Hwy.

It always surprises me that so many people come off I-66 westbound to make this right turn. There are only two possible places these drivers can be coming from: either 110 northbound or the TR Bridge. And there are only two places they could be headed to: the GW Parkway northbound or the Key Bridge. Examining each combination:

A) 110 northbound to GW Parkway: You can simply get on GW Parkway earlier and avoid Rosslyn altogether. Exit at Arlington Cemetery and go around the inside portion of Memorial Circle.

110 northbound to Key Bridge: The obvious alternative is Wilson Blvd to Lynn Street. This could put a few more vehicles in the urban part of Rosslyn. Not likely to increase overall congestion though, since the Key Bridge itself and the light at M Street are often the real holdup.

C) TR Bridge to GW Parkway: Anyone doing this could just take the exit directly off the bridge to the parkway.

D) TR Bridge to Key Bridge: I wonder what fraction of these drivers fall into this group. This might be the quickest way from Constitution Ave to Georgetown, for instance. But VDOT and Arlington shouldn’t be enticing these drivers to cut across two bridges. This traffic would stay in DC if the IoD right turn were prohibited.

[bentbike33]

@mstone 129935 wrote:

The real solution is to ban right turns, all the time, …

Looking at the street map, it would appear that virtually every driver looking to turn right across the IoD has to be coming from Jefferson Davis Highway, unless the Whitehurst freeway and other streets are so hopelessly choked that drivers are crossing the TR bridge, then the Key Bridge to get to Georgetown (GW parkway west is directly accessible from TR bridge). If right turns from the ramp to Lynn were banned, drivers would need to be directed to stay on Jefferson Davis/Wilson Blvd to turn right onto Lynn from Wilson to access Key Bridge and westbound GW Parkway. Seems doable, but it would be a complicated traffic study since specific vehicles would need to be tracked through the area rather than just setting up counters.

[wheelswings]

Looking at the bright side of Lynn/Lee…

I might never have met y’all were it not for close-calls at that intersection. So I guess I have that to be grateful for.
A few years ago I determined that I could no longer be silent about Lynn/Lee. I got online and found the Arlington Bicycle Advisory Committee on the web. I arranged childcare and showed up at one of their meetings. I was extremely nervous raising my hand at the BAC…this was right after some very hard times in my life, and the last thing I wanted was to be speaking to a group of strangers. My voice was shaking.
Lynn/Lee was not on the agenda, but I found a gap in the agenda where I could blurt out my concerns.
Little did I realize, some of you had been working on Lynn/Lee for years, even decades…

I kept going to the BAC meetings and I’d hear mention of “the Forum,” but I didn’t know what it was. It turned out I’d actually been on the Forum a bunch of times before, but only to check for information on snow and ice conditions during winter storms… I thought of the site as a sort of Weather Channel for bikers. I’d never realized there was a whole community of fellow commuters behind it. Now you are my friends. Thank you.

[Tim Kelley]

@wheels&wings 129955 wrote:

I kept going to the BAC meetings and I’d hear mention of “the Forum,” but I didn’t know what it was. It turned out I’d actually been on the Forum a bunch of times before, but only to check for information on snow and ice conditions during winter storms… I thought of the site as a sort of Weather Channel for bikers. I’d never realized there was a whole community of fellow commuters behind it. Now you are my friends. Thank you.

Yay for bike culture!

[huskerdont]

it would appear that virtually every driver looking to turn right across the IoD has to be coming from Jefferson Davis Highway

It’s I-66/Custis Memorial Hwy, innit? I’ve never taken that ramp but that’s what it looks like and what the map looks like to me.

Edit: Unless you mean that most are getting off of Jeff. Davis and onto I-66, then exiting. That would make sense. I see license plates from all three localities going through here though so a lot are probably coming from DC or across DC from MD, like Scoot’s option D I suppose.

[PotomacCyclist]

@scoot 129950 wrote:

Here’s an alternate thought: how about completely prohibiting right turns from this off-ramp? Cars exiting the freeway would be required to go straight up Lee Hwy.

It always surprises me that so many people come off I-66 westbound to make this right turn. There are only two possible places these drivers can be coming from: either 110 northbound or the TR Bridge. And there are only two places they could be headed to: the GW Parkway northbound or the Key Bridge. Examining each combination:

A) 110 northbound to GW Parkway: You can simply get on GW Parkway earlier and avoid Rosslyn altogether. Exit at Arlington Cemetery and go around the inside portion of Memorial Circle.

110 northbound to Key Bridge: The obvious alternative is Wilson Blvd to Lynn Street. This could put a few more vehicles in the urban part of Rosslyn. Not likely to increase overall congestion though, since the Key Bridge itself and the light at M Street are often the real holdup.

C) TR Bridge to GW Parkway: Anyone doing this could just take the exit directly off the bridge to the parkway.

D) TR Bridge to Key Bridge: I wonder what fraction of these drivers fall into this group. This might be the quickest way from Constitution Ave to Georgetown, for instance. But VDOT and Arlington shouldn’t be enticing these drivers to cut across two bridges. This traffic would stay in DC if the IoD right turn were prohibited.

Instead of just prohibiting right turns off that ramp, VDOT could remove that ramp altogether. Many drivers would likely ignore such a right-turn ban unless police were there almost non-stop. It’s better to rely on infrastructure design than ongoing enforcement. So remove that ramp and right turns would be impossible.

As you mentioned, there are already alternatives for drivers who currently make that right turn.

One issue would be for drivers who are crossing TR Bridge to get onto Lee Hwy. These drivers are traveling from Foggy Bottom to Rosslyn. They can simply travel on I-66 North (in DC)/E St NW to the Whitehurst Freeway. They would have to turn onto M St in Georgetown for one block before turning onto Key Bridge. Once they cross Key Bridge, they can take Ft Myer Dr south and turn right onto Lee Hwy. The trip from Foggy Bottom to Lee Hwy would be slightly longer, but not to an extreme extent. Perhaps the length of Key Bridge. Drivers who are heading from Foggy Bottom to I-66 west would continue to have the same access as today. The only lanes that would be removed under this idea would be those that branch off from I-66 to Lee Hwy. It’s not a super-long stretch of road.

Although this idea is unlikely to happen, if it were approved, VDOT could simply place concrete barriers at both ends. Some might complain that it would be an eyesore, but is that ramp not an eyesore today? It would look exactly the same except for the addition of some barriers. Then if Virginia ever sells development rights to the airspace over I-66 in Rosslyn, the developer could remove that stretch of the road. Or they could take advantage of the closed road to build directly on that stretch of land. This would provide more square footage for such a development and greatly decrease construction costs (because they wouldn’t have to work around a functioning road on that part of the area). The added footage and lower costs could make the area much more appealing to developers.

In the long-term future, funds from selling redevelopment rights could help pay for a second Metro tunnel through Rosslyn. This will make the Blue Line more functional than it is today. (After the Rush Plus plans and the opening of the Silver Line, Blue Line trains do not run as frequently through Rosslyn in peak hours.) A more effective Blue Line could encourage more people from Pentagon City, Crystal City, Potomac Yard and points south to take the Blue Line through Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom instead of driving. The Potomac Yard Metro station could be available by 2020 (although plans could easily change). Any changes to Rosslyn traffic patterns can and should be coordinated with Metro plans and the I-66 airspace redevelopment.

There would be some resistance from some quarters. But there are alternatives available for each trip. The closure would not be too expensive to implement. VDOT would only have to move a few concrete barriers into place. Plus they would need to study traffic patterns, survey drivers and then add signs on the roads leading into Rosslyn, along with media announcements about new traffic patterns. If the ramp closure helps to spur along the I-66 redevelopment plans, then the state could actually make a significant amount of money by closing that road. (Even if that money would have come anyway, the road closure could help move the redevelopment closer in time by a few years or more. Getting that money years earlier is a very real and very significant financial benefit to the state. Then that money can be spent on further improving transportation through Rosslyn.)

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