Existential Thread: Or What is Freezing Saddles Really All About

[vern]

@jrenaut 135774 wrote:

Is there something we can do to increase the competitiveness? I don’t want to take away from Team 15, but they have a 1600 point lead with three weeks to go. This is a fantastic accomplishment for Team 15, who are all ELITE badasses, but doesn’t help motivation for those of us left behind. It was clear my team wasn’t going to be close to the top after the first week.

What if we tried scoring it weekly? Assuming 20 teams, if your team is top this week you get 20 points, 2nd gets 19, etc. The individual leaderboard stays the same, but the team leaderboard is based on the weekly scores? If I get a chance this weekend, I’ll put up the leaderboard if we scored it this way so we can see how much difference it would make. I know last year it was proposed that we do away with the 10 point daily bonus, but that hardly would have changed the leaderboard at all, and i think the 10 point bonus is important for getting people to ride when it sucks outside.

I don’t think you can change the rules in the middle of the game. Maybe your team (and every other team) can’t win, but each team can try to reach a higher spot in the standings (but for the 2nd place team). Individuals can continue to try and achieve goals they may have set for themselves. And participants can continue to ride and enjoy riding for its own sake. But you don’t change the rules in the middle of the game.

[consularrider]

@jrenaut 135774 wrote:

Is there something we can do to increase the competitiveness? I don’t want to take away from Team 15, but they have a 1600 point lead with three weeks to go. This is a fantastic accomplishment for Team 15, who are all ELITE badasses, but doesn’t help motivation for those of us left behind. It was clear my team wasn’t going to be close to the top after the first week.

It’s all my fault, I have ridden 1200 fewer miles this year than my average for the first three Freezing Saddles. Sorry everyone, but I did warn Sunyata when she set up the teams. :p

[UnknownCyclist]

None of these issues would be a problem if Trump had already been elected. Under President Trump, BAFS would be so amazing it would make your head spin.

[jrenaut]

@vern 135776 wrote:

I don’t think you can change the rules in the middle of the game. Maybe your team (and every other team) can’t win, but each team can try to reach a higher spot in the standings (but for the 2nd place team). Individuals can continue to try and achieve goals they may have set for themselves. And participants can continue to ride and enjoy riding for its own sake. But you don’t change the rules in the middle of the game.

I didn’t mean to change for this year. I agree, no scoring changes mid-year.

[hozn]

I don’t think jrenaut is proposing changing the rules for 2016FS. He’s bringing up a point that others have noted which is that the competition typically isn’t very competitive for very long.

The idea of capping the lead on a weekly basis is interesting. I like the idea that things get reset and teams have to keep trying to keep ahead rather than stockpile mad miles early on to secure victory. I dunno.

I think that elevating some of the quantitative pointless prizes to first-class status and having many serious subcompetitions might also make this more competitive for a larger percentage of the participants.

I think it is great to have these discussions. I also think despite some feelings that this hasn’t had quite the same quality as previous years, it is obviously the most successful Freezing Saddles by far if we measure by new people having fun and people riding in winter for the first time.

Growing is hard to do.

[Bob James]

It’s been very competitive for Team 11. We’ve been battling between 3rd and 6th place for weeks. It’s every bit as challenging and rewarding as battling for 1st place. Go Team 11.

Competition – the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success)

[Bob James]

@jrenaut 135774 wrote:

What if we tried scoring it weekly? Assuming 20 teams, if your team is top this week you get 20 points, 2nd gets 19, etc. The individual leaderboard stays the same, but the team leaderboard is based on the weekly scores? If I get a chance this weekend, I’ll put up the leaderboard if we scored it this way so we can see how much difference it would make. I know last year it was proposed that we do away with the 10 point daily bonus, but that hardly would have changed the leaderboard at all, and i think the 10 point bonus is important for getting people to ride when it sucks outside.

I think the 10 point incentive is vital to encouraging players ride every day. Many of us go out and do a sleaze ride primarily for the extra 10 points and it awards consistency and participation. It would be great to have tiered extra points for the top 3 teams each week and also for the team with the rider with the most miles, most elevation and longest ride (from the Strava leaderboard stats). That would shake up which teams get extra points each week and maybe level the playing field.

[Alcova cyclist]

@Bob James 135782 wrote:

It’s been very competitive for Team 11. We’ve been battling between 3rd and 6th place for weeks. It’s every bit as challenging and rewarding as battling for 1st place. Go Team 11.

Competition – the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success)

This is what I was trying to say upthread. It doesn’t bother me too greatly if a team or two or three runs away with it early (As I recall that happened last year too). But wherever you are in the standings it’s much more fun to have a few teams you’re slugging it out with. I just don’t know how you could adjust the scoring to make that more likely.

Also, I agree that the 10 point bonus is worth keeping in some form — it’s one of the things that taught me that you really can ride in weather that seemed impossible. It also gives lower mileage riders the chance to be solid contributors to their teams even if they’re never going to go ride a century on the weekend — and that aspect of community and encouragement across all levels of cyclists is part of the FS magic. “Freeze points” or something like it might be an alternative (or maybe I just like it because i come out way better by FP metrics than any other scoring system).

[Steve O]

I totally agree that Freezing Saddles this year is again a fun and engaging competition, and it has brought new people into our community and has encouraged more people than ever to ride in weather they would never have otherwise. Yay for us.

I also really like this conversation, because good is good, but there are always ways to get better. That a number of us are sharing ideas is a great sign.

Here’s one idea that just popped into my head this morning that may be pretty easy. Along the lines of, “too far behind already…” what if the site also highlighted a team leaderboard of total team days ridden? I’d be curious to see how that board lined up with the other one. Some of the teams with lots of short commutes might be right up there in the running. And if there were a button right next to the other leaderboard buttons on the front page, it would add another layer of friendly competition and might even be competitive right up to the end.

[vvill]

@hozn 135780 wrote:

I don’t think jrenaut is proposing changing the rules for 2016FS. He’s bringing up a point that others have noted which is that the competition typically isn’t very competitive for very long.

The idea of capping the lead on a weekly basis is interesting. I like the idea that things get reset and teams have to keep trying to keep ahead rather than stockpile mad miles early on to secure victory. I dunno.

I think that elevating some of the quantitative pointless prizes to first-class status and having many serious subcompetitions might also make this more competitive for a larger percentage of the participants.

I think it is great to have these discussions. I also think despite some feelings that this hasn’t had quite the same quality as previous years, it is obviously the most successful Freezing Saddles by far if we measure by new people having fun and people riding in winter for the first time.

Growing is hard to do.

I agree with everything here – and I would also be interested in seeing the points set up on a weekly basis, although I suspect Team 15 is still gonna mop the floor.

With respect to competitiveness I feel like there’s just no way to balance teams if we want to be fully inclusive and base the scoring on day and miles. There’s just such a mix of riders – some folks would be happy to log 200 miles over winter, some do more than that in the first day of the year.

[cvcalhoun]

@vvill 135801 wrote:

I agree with everything here – and I would also be interested in seeing the points set up on a weekly basis, although I suspect Team 15 is still gonna mop the floor.

With respect to competitiveness I feel like there’s just no way to balance teams if we want to be fully inclusive and base the scoring on day and miles. There’s just such a mix of riders – some folks would be happy to log 200 miles over winter, some do more than that in the first day of the year.

I also question the goal of balancing the teams. I understand wanting to have them balanced before we start, so that no team starts out with a handicap. But no matter what we do, some teams (those whose members ride more miles than could be expected, based on past performance) will do better than others. Isn’t riding more miles than expected exactly what we’re trying to encourages? So the fact that some teams are way ahead of others is inherent in having it a competition at all, not an indication of a problem with assignments.

If we want teams to be as close as possible in points throughout the competition, we could juggle the teams every week so that their points were exactly the same. But I can’t see that this would make the competition more fun or more fair.

@Steve O 135791 wrote:

I totally agree that Freezing Saddles this year is again a fun and engaging competition, and it has brought new people into our community and has encouraged more people than ever to ride in weather they would never have otherwise. Yay for us.

I also really like this conversation, because good is good, but there are always ways to get better. That a number of us are sharing ideas is a great sign.

Here’s one idea that just popped into my head this morning that may be pretty easy. Along the lines of, “too far behind already…” what if the site also highlighted a team leaderboard of total team days ridden? I’d be curious to see how that board lined up with the other one. Some of the teams with lots of short commutes might be right up there in the running. And if there were a button right next to the other leaderboard buttons on the front page, it would add another layer of friendly competition and might even be competitive right up to the end.

I’d love to see this! It would be particularly encouraging to new people. If you haven’t ridden all winter before, it’s unlikely you’ll be among the top riders this year. But riding every day is a manageable goal, even for new riders. (I did it each of my first two years, although I have to admit to having slacked a bit this year.) And learning that you can get out every day will encourage people to ride more in future years.

[Judd]

I’m a first year participant and like how “the game” is structured. I rode zero miles in the winter last year. I’ve ridden 660 this winter. I now think 40 degree weather is “pretty nice” for a bike ride.

I’ve met some awesome people like Tim Vandish and Teresa Armundson who are two of the nicest people I’ve ever met; Ian Fingerman who changed my life as I was wallflowering at the initial happy hour by telling me that all you have to do is talk about bikes; Cynthia Palmer who is the cutest person that I have ever met; Sara Lappano, who will never do more Hains Point laps than me; and Mary Gersemalina who takes the best pictures on her rides.

Although I’m motivated by points and data, I don’t really care that my team isn’t going to win the overall points. There is enough data available that you can pick something else to win. My team is currently “winning” Hains Point laps. I’ll consider us victorious as long as we do more than Team 3 this year.

I think the system works the right way and is simple. Riding a mile is good. Riding more than a mile is extra good.

As far as side bets and pointless prizes, I haven’t really participated other than a little Beerneuring. Some of them are so complicated that my eyes glaze over after the first few sentences.

In sum, pipe down old timers, the new kids still find it fun and are happy to meet you especially since many of us lurked on the boards and on Strava before joining Freezing Saddles this year and at least in my case might consider you to be a biking idol.

[cvcalhoun]

@Bob James 135782 wrote:

It’s been very competitive for Team 11. We’ve been battling between 3rd and 6th place for weeks. It’s every bit as challenging and rewarding as battling for 1st place. Go Team 11.

Competition – the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success)

I agree. The Fourth Awakens has taken great pleasure in going from thirteenth to eighth place.

[cvcalhoun]

@Bob James 135782 wrote:

It’s been very competitive for Team 11. We’ve been battling between 3rd and 6th place for weeks. It’s every bit as challenging and rewarding as battling for 1st place. Go Team 11.

Competition – the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success)

I agree. The Fourth Awakens has taken great pleasure in going from thirteenth to eighth place.

[SouthernDCist]

@Steve O 135511 wrote:

I’m going to follow up my own question with my opinion.

I like

vvill recently suggested a “gnarly weather” metric that might more accurately capture the “spirit” of Freezing Saddles. Similarly, if we believe a significant part of the “spirit” of Freezing Saddles is beerneuring and N+1 and London Bridge and photos on Instagram & the website and ridiculous coffee challenges and happy hours and the FSLNHPP, etc., then why not include those in the rankings? Currently we give points for days and miles, so, as any dismal economist would point out, that’s what people care about. If the rankings included points for the social aspects–as many here have emphasized, an important component of the “spirit” of Freezing Saddles, then it becomes integral to the game rather than ancillary.

As someone who’s worked as a recruiting consultant for social organizations in a past life, I just wanted to say that I’ve found this thread especially enlightening and heartening. I’ve personally witnessed many of these same existential conversations amongst organizational founders at their precipice of either exponential growth toward more socially inclusive recruitment, or re-focused principles toward the ideal perspective that the founders’ intended.

I whole-heatedly appreciated getting to play this year. My team was a never ending source of Kudos and motivation for this first-timer, and I needed it. I wouldn’t have ridden nearly as often, like most of my non-BAFS riding friends (thus, I feel at least somewhat converted). I really enjoyed my lone team meetup, and hope to make it to the closing HH.

While I may have approached BAFS an initial “Type A” perspective, I now have far greater respect for what “Type B” could be, and I hope to join y’all for the ride. 😎

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