Dang electric motorcycles

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108680 wrote:

There’s a large gulf between anecdote (your experience and the experiences of your friends) and data. The data doesn’t support your anecdotal experience. Bummer about your injuries. Sometimes you gotta slow down on the trail, even if it’s just to allow for others riding stupidly.

So now you’ve shifted to railing against bikes with a motor that don’t meet the federal standard? Those are in all likelihood not allowed on the Custis. But there aren’t a lot of those on the trails – not a lot of those have been sold. So mass enforcement of that particular rule is probably not a very good use of the limited acpd resources (as opposed to, say, stationing an officer at the corner of lee and Lynn).

Honestly, the trails could be a lot safer. But the unsafe users on the trail are not uniformly one group. I’m not entirely sure what you’re after. Should we try to get police to patrol our trails more? We have so many other places where the danger is lethal – mostly intersections with cars – that those are the priority. And the laws aren’t very clear cut. We’d have to change a lot of that in Richmond, but we have other priorities there too.

But the ire that I and others see you raise towards ebikes really seems misplaced. It sucks that you were passed by a rude guy.

Hi, Dasgeh,

I don’t think I’ve changed my tune, my initial post just asked whether there are rules regarding power and the next post in which I stated any view I said ” If electric motorcycles are limited to not having enough power to pass dangerously like this (uphill at high speed), then it’s a step in the right direction.”

Just responding to the point that not a lot of above-legal-power e-bikes have been sold. You may be right that not a lot have been sold, I don’t have the statistics. But if so, it’s not for lack of trying by some manufacturers. And there seems to be somewhat of a culture among some e-bike proponents of encouraging speed. For instance, Electricbike.com seems to have somewhat of a fetish for illegally-fast e-bikes, e.g.
https://www.electricbike.com/illegal-production-ebikes/
“Hats off to these companies for offering some fun bikes that are literally law breakers.” (The companies in question included Specialized and some smaller production companies.)

And in a recent (May 2014) Bicycle Times magazine article, the author was enthusiastic about the fact that his e-bike can hit 30mph without pedaling and was dismissive about the 20mph rule.

As to manufacturers, one of the biggest in the world, Specialized, is using speed as a selling point for their e-bikes: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/ebike/turbo
“Highly discerning e-bike riders demand what only this bike can provide: the ultimate speed, performance, and sexy looks of a high-end Urban bike, with the added convenience of the smoothest, most powerful motor available. You don’t want to casually spin to work or around town, you want to own the road and even give cars a run for their money. … The Specialized Turbo S combines speed and style through an innovative electric-assist motor, advanced electronics, and sleek design. Capable of a top speed of 45 km/h*, the Turbo S delivers superhuman power to anyone who rides it.”

Felt, on the other hand, makes a point of saying that their e-bikes comply with the 20mph rule. Trek doesn’t say anything about speed.

Obviously, you are not a proponent of illegally-high-powered e-bikes. But it is troubling that even some of the biggest manufacturers make a point of selling their e-bikes using speed as a key selling point, and some e-bike proponents also have a speed fixation.

Nick

[Mikey]

No different than car advertisements for 0-60 acceleration rates. “Our car goes 0-60 over 7-year olds” At least that’s how I hear it.
Hard to remember the last time I drove 60mph in DC.

[OneEighth]

@NickBull 108610 wrote:

Fixie riders — they know how painful it’s going to be to lose speed so they’re willing to risk other people’s lives to avoid a bit of pain;

Embrace the pain. Pain makes you beautiful.

[dasgeh]

@NickBull 108728 wrote:

Just responding to the point that not a lot of above-legal-power e-bikes have been sold. You may be right that not a lot have been sold, I don’t have the statistics. But if so, it’s not for lack of trying by some manufacturers. And there seems to be somewhat of a culture among some e-bike proponents of encouraging speed. For instance, Electricbike.com seems to have somewhat of a fetish for illegally-fast e-bikes, e.g.
https://www.electricbike.com/illegal-production-ebikes/
“Hats off to these companies for offering some fun bikes that are literally law breakers.” (The companies in question included Specialized and some smaller production companies.)

I’m still missing what you want. Yes, you can find people on the internet who are fans of, well, pretty much anything. There are plenty of people who are fans of really fast things. Honestly, not to burst their bubble, but these over-powered motorized bikes aren’t really illegal. Usually they don’t fall into the safe haven that exemptions them from certain lighting and insurance requirements, but most states don’t impose them anyways. They are probably prohibited from many trails, but not from the roads, and usually not from the bike lanes. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s not illegal per se to have a motor that can go above the speed limit on a road, even though it’s illegal to actually use that motor to go above the speed limit — on a bike or in a car.

But all of this is side show. Yes, there is a problem with jerks on trails. Unfortunately, there’s a much bigger problem with jerks in cars, so that’s where we concentrate resources. There is very little problem with ebikes on trails, in and of themselves, and advocating for some sort of stronger ban or enforcement not only takes resources and attention away from issues that need those resources and attention much more, it could potentially do much more harm by discouraging a group of people from cycling.

-Gillian, the pregnant lady on an ebike daily on the Custis, often with toddlers on my bike, Founder Kidical Mass Arlington, Chair Arlington Bicycle Advisory Committee, former Vice-Chair, APS Multi-modal Transportation and Student Safety Special Committee.

PS. I ride daily on the Custis and stop at all the reds. I very rarely see others do the same. No need to respond to the group, but NickBull, are you one of the frequent Custis commuters who runs those reds, or do you stop?

[83b]

@Mikey 108729 wrote:

Hard to remember the last time I drove 60mph in DC.

How are you avoiding the Pennsylvania Ave International Raceway and the Maryland Ave NE Grand Prix?

[Mikey]

@83(b) 108734 wrote:

How are you avoiding the Pennsylvania Ave International Raceway and the Maryland Ave NE Grand Prix?

My bus doesn’t go over 55, or else Keanu Reves gets onboard.

[mstone]

@NickBull 108728 wrote:

I don’t think I’ve changed my tune, my initial post just asked whether there are rules regarding power and the next post in which I stated any view I said ” If electric motorcycles are limited to not having enough power to pass dangerously like this (uphill at high speed), then it’s a step in the right direction.”

Power doesn’t work like that. If you set things up such that a kid can’t go up the hill “too fast”, then a heavy grownup won’t make it up the hill at all. What’s actually practical to implement is a speed governor, but that won’t allow you to arbitrarily decide a priori what is “too fast” for “uphill” vs “downhill”. FWIW, I think that debate is silly, and the important thing is to ride at a speed appropriate to conditions, whether on an electric assist bike or not. I think most of the bad riders on the trail are purely human-powered.

[TwoWheelsDC]

I think I’ve seen more actual motorcycles on the trails than e-bikes.

Add in cars on the trails and I’ve definitely seen more than e-bikes. Frankly, e-bikes as a “thing” don’t even register as an issue of concern for me.

[PotomacCyclist]

I’ve also seen more police cars, maintenance “golf carts” and police motorcycles than e-bikes on area trails. I can see the potential for safety issues, but not really any different from the safety issues with unsafe leg-powered bikes and gas-powered cars at intersections and on roads. Setting aside the issues of unsafe car drivers on roads, the main problem I’ve experienced on paved trails is aggressive riding by people on regular bikes.

It would be much better if the Mt. Vernon Trail were wider, but that doesn’t excuse unsafe riding: people zooming past others and trying to squeeze in between two-way bike traffic on crowded trails, forcing people off to the side of the trail to avoid head-on collisions. It always seems to me that these people are doing tempo rides and speedwork on the trails because they are intensely focused (ignoring me when I call out at them as they are headed toward oncoming bike traffic on the other side of the center yellow line), clad in sleek aero jerseys and often aero helmets, and riding 10 mph or more above the rest of the bike traffic (and 20 mph faster than the runners). Maybe a bit of a generalization, but not much. This happens fairly often in the summer months. I wish it were a rare occurrence but it’s not. In my experience, it’s never a case of someone speeding by on an e-bike. I’m sure there must be some people doing that on e-bikes but I don’t recall seeing this ever.

I also see some people passing just as they are headed into blind turns, while maintaining a high rate of speed. Again, it’s people pedaling on non-assisted bikes that I’ve seen doing this along the MVT. (I rarely ride on the Custis so I can’t speak to practices and situations there.)

As others mentioned, the main problem is aggression combined with a complete lack of concern for the safety of others. I don’t really see the e-bike issue as the primary issue. It might be a problem in some situations, but there are plenty of car drivers and regular cyclists (people riding regular non-motorized bikes) who behave dangerously as well. (Infrastructure design also plays a role, but that’s more of an excuse. People know the MVT is narrow. No reason why that explains or excuses people who pass at high speed going into blind turns, or who pass directly into two-way traffic and force people off to the side of the trail just so they can pass and maintain their tempo heart rate or training effort on a crowded trail.

[AFHokie]

@NickBull 108686 wrote:

Find me the quote where I “professed a hate for novice cyclists.” I said I hate cyclists who endanger me. You like those cyclists?

I wasn’t in the parking lot. She was. 8am. Not congested. I was coming down the ramp from the curlicue Mt Vernon crossing and had just come around the corner so I was going about 10 to 12 mph. But by the time I realized she was accelerating instead of braking, there wasn’t time to completely stop before the ramp from the parking lot up to the trail, which was her objective. FWIW, the upshot was that having admitted fault, she bought me a new bicycle, having destroyed mine.

Never used Strava but the fact that you would quote those two items suggests you think they’re somehow inappropriate. To me, they seem like good advice. Do you think it is good to encourage racing on trails like the Custis?

Do I want to trade paint with them, no, but I like the fact that people of all abilities out on the trail. It means people are out cycling and it’s hard to improve at something if you don’t get out there and actually do it.

I worked in military aviation; a profession that occasionally tried to kill me and successfully did some of my friends. It’s a risk that’s part of the job. I also know that in nearly every aviation crash not a result of an instantaneous catastrophic mechanical failure, combat, or weather; exist multiple points that if somebody had done something different it would’ve broken the chain leading to the crash.

I doubt you’ll agree, but your decisions/actions contributed to the crash. At multiple points you could’ve done things differently and avoided the collision. Nothing mandated you come down the curly-cue at 10-12mph; if you descended slower; you would’ve afforded yourself more time to observe her actions; maneuver as needed and required less stopping distance. Additionally, she would’ve also had more time to observe you and afforded her more time to determine she needed to slow down or given her more time to clear your line well before the collision point.

Like the saying goes “it takes two to tango”

Ok, you got me; you never specifically typed: “professed a hate for novice cyclists”. I paraphrased and they are my words. Would “disdain” make you feel better?

The quotes you requested:

@NickBull 108664 wrote:

Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns…

@NickBull 108664 wrote:

And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread

@NickBull 108673 wrote:

I only hate people who endanger my life by riding dangerously

Technically you didn’t use the phrase “novice cyclist”, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to infer the hate (this time your word) you stated is towards novice cyclists.

Finally, you blame novice cyclists for what appears just about every cycling accident you have knowledge of:

@NickBull 108677 wrote:

Novice cyclist, she’d only been riding for a couple of months. As I mentioned in a previous post, my friend had his pelvis broken by a novice cyclist on his way to classes at Georgetown.

Now do you understand how the average neanderthal such as myself could read your posts and think you professed a hate toward novice cyclists?

Yep, I find Strava segments such as those inappropriate. I find them immature, caustic and textbook passive-aggressive. They’re like that person driving ten under the in the fast lane who indignantly wonders why others keep passing them illegally in the right lane.

Thankfully, it appears the segments titled “only A-holes ride fast on multi-use trails…” also appear deleted. Nick, do you find that one more appropriate?

[DismalScientist]

I think this thread needs some more fixie hate. Especially those who convert perfect good old multispeed bikes with horizontal dropouts to fixed gears. Many of these bikes had downtube shifters. God intended for those shifters to be there, and not be indexed. But real ire should be reserved for those bastards that saw off derailleur hangers integrated with the frame. There is a cold place in hell waiting for these “people.”

[jnva]

I’ve been riding my “electric motorcycle” to work for over three years. Before that I rode a single speed mountain bike. Maybe I missed the part that nicbull talked about getting injured, but I’ve never seen an “electric motorcycle” cause an accident – ever. But I have seen many many ELITE cyclists run into pedestrians, other bikers, and just crash from going too fast. You are way of track, Nick.

[Subby]

If I ever see Nick on the trails I am absolutely going to ride up next to him and caress his shoulder in the most earnest, non-threatening way possible.

[NickBull]

@AFHokie 108977 wrote:

…I worked in military aviation; a profession that occasionally tried to kill me and successfully did some of my friends. It’s a risk that’s part of the job. I also know that in nearly every aviation crash not a result of an instantaneous catastrophic mechanical failure, combat, or weather; exist multiple points that if somebody had done something different it would’ve broken the chain leading to the crash.

I doubt you’ll agree, but your decisions/actions contributed to the crash. …

I actually do agree, in a limited sense, because I no longer assume that no cyclist could be so monumentally stupid as to deliberately accelerate head-on toward another cyclist. So when I see another cyclist riding toward the on-ramp to the trail, I slow down just in case. Though there is, of course, some danger to being rear-ended in that curve, by another cyclist who doesn’t expect you to slow down when you clearly have the right of way.

However, despite every caution that can possibly be applied, sometimes (as I’m sure you found in your aviation career): Shit Happens. If you are the only person in humankind to whom this does not apply, then apply for sainthood Otherwise, the only way to avoid being in an accident on your bike with 100 percent certainty is to never ride your bike.

I don’t use Strava so I don’t know what a Strava segment is. I find your comments about the Strava comments confusing. On the one hand, you seem to be all in favor of riding conservatively to avoid accidents. On the other, you seem to want to put down anyone who comments on Strava to try to have the same effect. Maybe if I saw the comments I would understand better where you’re coming from.

I do notice that if I google for “Strava Custis” that the section from its west end to the top of Rosslyn Hill has been marked as “Dangerous” and Strava isn’t keeping records for it, but the section that includes the entire Custis trail to the Intersection of Death at N. Lynn Street is apparently not “Dangerous” and Strava is keeping records, including a “KOM” who averaged 24mph. That hardly seems like a responsible business model to me, and is why I’ve had no interest in being on Strava.

Nick

[Arlingtonrider]

Could you all please move this discussion out of the road and trail conditions thread? Thanks.

[Author]

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