Dang electric motorcycles

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108620 wrote:

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, but you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to ebikes. Some people are jerks. Some of those people drive cars, some of them ride bikes and yes, some ride ebikes. But the nature of the ebike in itself actually makes it less likely someone is going to ride like a jerk – it’s easier to get up to speed, so there’s less incentive to preserve speed than with a traditional bike. Also, ebikes make it possible for people who couldn’t bike to be on bikes and by far the thing that makes you safer on a bike is to have more people biking.

You’re right that the laws and enforcement on trails on trails is not at the same level as on roads. The very simple explanation is that far, far more people die on roads, and specifically because of cars. So we spend a lot more of our public energy – writing laws and enforcing them – on roads.

I think 25 years of commuting on the Custis, roughly 4000 commute miles per year and an additional 5000 of long-distance weekend riding qualifies me as an observer of cycling and cyclists. The path has undoubtedly become more dangerous as it has become more crowded. More cyclists on the road make me safer. More cyclists on the path endanger me. Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns. But because they are riding on a powerful motorized bicycle, they can attain speeds that are otherwise only attainable by cyclists who are typically stronger and more experienced. However, unlike those more-experienced cyclists, the electric motorcycle riders do not understand the danger they are putting themselves and others into. I have seen this over and over again. Yes, there are bad cyclists of every stripe–I’m sure that we have all had plenty of experience of them. But the share of electric motorcycle riders who ride dangerously is much higher than the share of strong, fast cyclists. Maybe you are correct that they don’t _need_ to maintain speed, but as a practical matter they seem to behave as if they do, and are reluctant to put their brakes on.

The only plus that I can identify from more cyclists on the path is that it has finally convinced Arlington to plow. I have slightly mixed feelings about that, because one of the best things about winter was that only hard-core, experienced and safe cyclists rode in the winter. And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread. And as soon as I get to the river, I still need my studded tires because no one but Arlington plows.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108620 wrote:

I don’t know where you’re getting this from, but you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to ebikes. Some people are jerks. Some of those people drive cars, some of them ride bikes and yes, some ride ebikes. But the nature of the ebike in itself actually makes it less likely someone is going to ride like a jerk – it’s easier to get up to speed, so there’s less incentive to preserve speed than with a traditional bike. Also, ebikes make it possible for people who couldn’t bike to be on bikes and by far the thing that makes you safer on a bike is to have more people biking.

You’re right that the laws and enforcement on trails on trails is not at the same level as on roads. The very simple explanation is that far, far more people die on roads, and specifically because of cars. So we spend a lot more of our public energy – writing laws and enforcing them – on roads.

I think 25 years of commuting on the Custis, roughly 4000 commute miles per year and an additional 5000 of long-distance weekend riding qualifies me as an observer of cycling and cyclists. The path has undoubtedly become more dangerous as it has become more crowded. More cyclists on the road make me safer. More cyclists on the path endanger me. Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns. But because they are riding on a powerful motorized bicycle, they can attain speeds that are otherwise only attainable by cyclists who are typically stronger and more experienced. However, unlike those more-experienced cyclists, the electric motorcycle riders do not understand the danger they are putting themselves and others into. I have seen this over and over again. Yes, there are bad cyclists of every stripe including the strong, fast riders–I’m sure that we have all had plenty of experience of them. But the share of electric motorcycle riders who ride dangerously is higher than the share of strong, fast cyclists. Maybe you are correct that they don’t _need_ to maintain speed, but as a practical matter they seem to behave as if they do, and are reluctant to put their brakes on.

The only plus that I can identify from more cyclists on the path is that it has finally convinced Arlington to plow. I have slightly mixed feelings about that, because one of the best things about winter was that only hard-core, experienced and safe cyclists rode in the winter. And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread. And as soon as I get to the river, I still need my studded tires because no one but Arlington plows.

Nick

[rcannon100]

@NickBull 108661 wrote:

And … just to reply to the dislike from 83(b). Somehow, I just don’t find it particularly bothersome to know that some anonymous person who hasn’t enough courage to use their own name doesn’t like my post

There. I disliked it too. My name is Robert Cannon.

Maybe if we were not so anonymous to you, you would find it harder to hate us. Why dont you come to a coffee club or a happy hour. There you will find people who ride ebikes, fixies, and are racing poseurs. Some are even actual racers. And all of them ride responsibly, dont put people at risk, and care about safety. I’m not saying there are not idiots out there – I’m saying being an idiot has nothing to do with whether you ride an ebike, fixie or racing bike. And making such sweeping generalizations doesnt help get us to solutions much.

BTW I take it NickBull is not the name your mama gave you – so, what’s your real name. You know, so we know you have courage.

[dasgeh]

@NickBull 108664 wrote:

I think 25 years of commuting on the Custis, roughly 4000 commute miles per year and an additional 5000 of long-distance weekend riding qualifies me as an observer of cycling and cyclists. The path has undoubtedly become more dangerous as it has become more crowded. More cyclists on the road make me safer. More cyclists on the path endanger me. Novice cylists are the worst; the single worst week of the year on the path is the week that starts with Bike to Work Day. Most electric motorcycle riders are novice cyclists, based on my observation of their riding patterns. But because they are riding on a powerful motorized bicycle, they can attain speeds that are otherwise only attainable by cyclists who are typically stronger and more experienced. However, unlike those more-experienced cyclists, the electric motorcycle riders do not understand the danger they are putting themselves and others into. I have seen this over and over again. Yes, there are bad cyclists of every stripe–I’m sure that we have all had plenty of experience of them. But the share of electric motorcycle riders who ride dangerously is much higher than the share of strong, fast cyclists. Maybe you are correct that they don’t _need_ to maintain speed, but as a practical matter they seem to behave as if they do, and are reluctant to put their brakes on.

The only plus that I can identify from more cyclists on the path is that it has finally convinced Arlington to plow. I have slightly mixed feelings about that, because one of the best things about winter was that only hard-core, experienced and safe cyclists rode in the winter. And now there are more novice cyclists like the one that caused this thread. And as soon as I get to the river, I still need my studded tires because no one but Arlington plows.

Nick

Interesting. I actually look into data on this and most of the data I’ve seen (although very thin) shows that the slight majority of ebikes are bought and used by (1) people who need the motor for a medical reason or (2) bike with kids on their bike. not exactly groups known for their excessive risk taking. Logically, novice riders wouldn’t invest the money you need to get an ebike. Of course, you’ll always get a few jerks, but a rule banning ebikes from the trail won’t keep the jerks off – it’ll just kick the pregnant women riding with toddlers off. Is that really your goal?

Yes, the Custis needs to be wider and the trails in general need better maintenance. We would all be well served by a campaign to make those things happen (eg you can comment on vdot’s current I66 proposal and insist that the multimodal improvements include a widening of the Custis during the first phase). But as long as these trails intersect streets, as the Custis does, more bikes is still going to make you safer, because it’s still a lot less likely that getting hit by a bike is going to kill you than getting hit by a car.

[rcannon100]

@NickBull 108605 wrote:

Does it have a motor? Yes. Therefore it is a motorcycle.

A bicycle with a motor. Ergo, a motorcycle.

[hozn]

Hi NickBull, welcome to the world of cycling. It may surprise you that it is a world as varied as the color options for Chris King headsets. Not everyone is like you. Some people are faster. Some have the self-confidence to be passed by people on e-bikes without calling them “cheaters”. Some have little computers on their bikes. Some are competitive. And, yes, some are jackholes.

If electric-assist bicycles are blowing your mind, you should check out electronic shifting.

[NickBull]

@rcannon100 108667 wrote:

There. I disliked it too. My name is Robert Cannon.

Maybe if we were not so anonymous to you, you would find it harder to hate us. Why dont you come to a coffee club or a happy hour. There you will find people who ride ebikes, fixies, and are racing poseurs. Some are even actual racers. And all of them ride responsibly, dont put people at risk, and care about safety. I’m not saying there are not idiots out there – I’m saying being an idiot has nothing to do with whether you ride an ebike, fixie or racing bike. And making such sweeping generalizations doesnt help get us to solutions much.

BTW I take it NickBull is not the name your mama gave you – so, what’s your real name. You know, so we know you have courage.

I’d have thought that the fact that my posting name is NickBull and I sign most of my posts as “Nick” might be enough to help you figure out that the name my mother gave me was … Nick Bull. Look up “Nick Bull randonneuring”. I spend most of my free time on long-distance bike rides (200km +), as do most of my closest friends, so I haven’t really felt a need to leave for work early to go drink coffee at Swing’s. That doesn’t mean that I “hate” any of you–I only hate people who endanger my life by riding dangerously.

Nick

[NickBull]

@dasgeh 108668 wrote:

Interesting. I actually look into data on this and most of the data I’ve seen (although very thin) shows that the slight majority of ebikes are bought and used by (1) people who need the motor for a medical reason or (2) bike with kids on their bike. not exactly groups known for their excessive risk taking. Logically, novice riders wouldn’t invest the money you need to get an ebike. Of course, you’ll always get a few jerks, but a rule banning ebikes from the trail won’t keep the jerks off – it’ll just kick the pregnant women riding with toddlers off. Is that really your goal?

Yes, the Custis needs to be wider and the trails in general need better maintenance. We would all be well served by a campaign to make those things happen (eg you can comment on vdot’s current I66 proposal and insist that the multimodal improvements include a widening of the Custis during the first phase). But as long as these trails intersect streets, as the Custis does, more bikes is still going to make you safer, because it’s still a lot less likely that getting hit by a bike is going to kill you than getting hit by a car.

You’re probably correct that you’re less likely to get killed on the trail than on the road. But I think the chances of serious injury per mile traveled are greater than driving. FWIW, the only serious accident I’ve been in was because a woman decided she just had to merge onto the bike path from the Roosevelt Island parking lot–to do so, she had to cross in front of me, and when she realized that she didn’t have time, her solution was to speed up, not put on the brakes. The impact sounded like the crunch that you hear during football games, broke my cheekbone leaving my face numb for half a year, and knocked several teeth loose that are still misaligned eight years later. Novice cyclist, she’d only been riding for a couple of months. As I mentioned in a previous post, my friend had his pelvis broken by a novice cyclist on his way to classes at Georgetown. My wife’s finger was dislocated when she was riding off the Roosevelt Bridge toward the parking lot and a cyclist coming off the wooden bridge cut in front of her and then crashed. I know a lot of people who have had injuries while commuting on the trails. I know few who have had injuries while driving. So I do think that potentially some rules and enforcement could potentially be a plus. If the frequency with which I see dangerous riders is any indication, it should be pretty easy for a bicycle-mounted police person to encounter them, too, and give them a ticket.

As to e-bikes — anything powerful enough to go up Rosslyn Hill at about 20mph without pedaling is way more powerful than the limit. On the flat, it would easily hit 30mph. How would your pregnant woman with toddlers feel about mixing it up with a bunch of e-bikes coming the opposite way on the Custis at speeds like that? For the last decade, I fairly-often have seen a woman who –ten years ago was riding a bike that let her haul a couple of kids — and now rides along with her ten-year-olds each on their own bikes. I sure wouldn’t want those kids to be on trails with e-bikes that can go at 30mph.

Frankly, a 20mph limit is still fast enough that it means that inexperienced riders are riding at speeds that usually can only be attained by more-experienced riders. It’s asking for trouble. But at least a 20mph limit is better than the 30mph that I’ve seen advertised and promoted by e-bike proponents, e.g. in Bicycle Times.

Nick

[rcannon100]

@NickBull 108673 wrote:

I’d have thought that the fact that my posting name is NickBull and I sign most of my posts as “Nick” might be enough to help you figure out that the name my mother gave me was … Nick Bull. Look up “Nick Bull randonneuring”. I spend most of my free time on long-distance bike rides (200km +), as do most of my closest friends, so I haven’t really felt a need to leave for work early to go drink coffee at Swing’s. That doesn’t mean that I “hate” any of you–I only hate people who endanger my life by riding dangerously.

Nick

You say

That doesn’t mean that I “hate” any of you

But then you dont live up to it. You dont

hate people who endanger my life by riding dangerously.

You have said that the danger is speeding. But then you have labeled anyone riding an ebike as part of that danger and then hate them. There are several members of this community who ride ebikes. And not satisfied with hating ebike riders, you then wander off topic and announce your hatred for fixie riders – many of whom are part of this forum and ride safely – and wannabe racers – many of whom are part of this forum and ride safely.

And what is also interesting is that you keep resorting to arguments that have nothing to do with the topic – and losing.

83 is anonymous

Okay, I’m not

I have lived here 25 years

Okay, I’ve lived here 50. I was born here

If it has a motor, it is a motorcycle

Um, no. I mean we can play little semantic games that are unhelpful. But no.

for some reason there is no law enforcement on the public paths

Funny, cause a whole bunch of us have gotten tickets on the public paths and had plenty of discussions here about that fact.

Only ebikes pass me that fast

Okay, the fastest cyclists passing me have been ELITE riders – generally not people part of this forum. I have to admit, I have never ever not once been passed by an ebike speeding on the Custis – but I have been passed many times by people speeding.

I spend most of my free time on long-distance bike rides (200km +), as do most of my closest friends,

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. But okay, I spend my free time cycling too, although most of the people here I dont like very much. Particularly the guys who ride Fatties when it snows out. Ooooooh, dont get me started about them. And then there is the guy who is riding his bicycle in WV right now.

So why dont we get back to the point. You dont like speeding and unsafe cycling. Okay, almost no one on this forum does. You have decided that all ebike riders, fixie riders, and racer wannabees are in the wrong. You have declared that you are in a different tribe – a ramdoneer – and I guess ramdoneers somehow always magically are safe cyclists – and there is no need for any ramdoneer group to have this as part of the thing you have to sign:

Riders must wear an ANSI or Snell approved helmet while cycling, must obey city, county and state laws, and conduct themselves in a manner which will not bring disrepute to the event, the Santa Cruz Randonneurs and Randonneurs USA. Riders found to be ticketed by local authorities risk disqualification.

So somehow the following gives you the right to hate ebike riders, fixie riders, and race trainers
* a statistically insignificant data set of getting passed by some guy
* a generalization of that one experience to apply to an entire tribe of cyclists
* an extrapolation of that aspersion to two other tribes of cyclists
* a claim of authority that you have lived here a long time
* a sanctimonious attack on 83 about being anonymous
* And a claim of being a randomeer
* And having close friends
* the fact that a bike could go (regardless of whether it actually goes) 30 mph (isnt that pretty much every road bike??)

Sorry – look – you have attacked members of this forum. And we are close friends. And I, for one, dont like it. If you have a problem with speeding on the trails, deal with the problem of speeding. But stop hating cyclists just because they are different than your tribe. Riding an ebike, a fixie, or being a wannabe racer doesnt make you inherently wrong – any more than being a ramdoneer.

[dasgeh]

@NickBull 108677 wrote:

You’re probably correct that you’re less likely to get killed on the trail than on the road. But I think the chances of serious injury per mile traveled are greater than driving. FWIW, the only serious accident I’ve been in was because a woman decided she just had to merge onto the bike path from the Roosevelt Island parking lot–to do so, she had to cross in front of me, and when she realized that she didn’t have time, her solution was to speed up, not put on the brakes. The impact sounded like the crunch that you hear during football games, broke my cheekbone leaving my face numb for half a year, and knocked several teeth loose that are still misaligned eight years later. Novice cyclist, she’d only been riding for a couple of months. As I mentioned in a previous post, my friend had his pelvis broken by a novice cyclist on his way to classes at Georgetown. My wife’s finger was dislocated when she was riding off the Roosevelt Bridge toward the parking lot and a cyclist coming off the wooden bridge cut in front of her and then crashed. I know a lot of people who have had injuries while commuting on the trails. I know few who have had injuries while driving. So I do think that potentially some rules and enforcement could potentially be a plus. If the frequency with which I see dangerous riders is any indication, it should be pretty easy for a bicycle-mounted police person to encounter them, too, and give them a ticket.

As to e-bikes — anything powerful enough to go up Rosslyn Hill at about 20mph without pedaling is way more powerful than the limit. On the flat, it would easily hit 30mph. How would your pregnant woman with toddlers feel about mixing it up with a bunch of e-bikes coming the opposite way on the Custis at speeds like that? For the last decade, I fairly-often have seen a woman who –ten years ago was riding a bike that let her haul a couple of kids — and now rides along with her ten-year-olds each on their own bikes. I sure wouldn’t want those kids to be on trails with e-bikes that can go at 30mph.

Frankly, a 20mph limit is still fast enough that it means that inexperienced riders are riding at speeds that usually can only be attained by more-experienced riders. It’s asking for trouble. But at least a 20mph limit is better than the 30mph that I’ve seen advertised and promoted by e-bike proponents, e.g. in Bicycle Times.

Nick

There’s a large gulf between anecdote (your experience and the experiences of your friends) and data. The data doesn’t support your anecdotal experience. Bummer about your injuries. Sometimes you gotta slow down on the trail, even if it’s just to allow for others riding stupidly.

So now you’ve shifted to railing against bikes with a motor that don’t meet the federal standard? Those are in all likelihood not allowed on the Custis. But there aren’t a lot of those on the trails – not a lot of those have been sold. So mass enforcement of that particular rule is probably not a very good use of the limited acpd resources (as opposed to, say, stationing an officer at the corner of lee and Lynn).

Honestly, the trails could be a lot safer. But the unsafe users on the trail are not uniformly one group. I’m not entirely sure what you’re after. Should we try to get police to patrol our trails more? We have so many other places where the danger is lethal – mostly intersections with cars – that those are the priority. And the laws aren’t very clear cut. We’d have to change a lot of that in Richmond, but we have other priorities there too.

But the ire that I and others see you raise towards ebikes really seems misplaced. It sucks that you were passed by a rude guy.

[Steve O]

@NickBull 108677 wrote:

Frankly, a 20mph limit is still fast enough that it means that inexperienced riders are riding at speeds that usually can only be attained by more-experienced riders. It’s asking for trouble. But at least a 20mph limit is better than the 30mph that I’ve seen advertised and promoted by e-bike proponents, e.g. in Bicycle Times.

I and many riders I know, including you, Nick, hit 30 or close to it eastbound down the second sister just before the parking deck on the Custis. It’s fairly difficult, in fact, to not exceed 20 on that section. And that can be a perfectly safe–or a dangerously idiotic–speed. That depends on conditions and what other trail users are doing.

I have also been riding the Custis for a couple of decades and have seen my share of dangerous behavior. However, I agree with dasgeh that it’s only through the addition of more and more people on bicycles–on streets, on trails, in bike lanes–everywhere, that we will accelerate our and our adjoining jurisdictions’ efforts to improve the experience for everyone. And that includes people riding e-bikes.

I love novice riders for that reason, and I wrote them a little paean a while back.

[AFHokie]

Nick,
Since you’ve professed a hate for novice cyclists, I’ll ask the question. Your first time riding a bike; were you then an expert cyclist as you are now?

I’m sorry you were injured in a crash, but shouldn’t you also slow down by the TR Island parking lot? To experience injuries as you described suggests an amount of speed in an area most agree is a place often congested with pedestrian and cyclist traffic.

You can quit making generalizations; these links will help you out:
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Bicycle/
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Bicycles
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/

I’ve got to ask; are you the guy behind ‘gems’ like these on Strava?

– “Flagged because KOM chasers pose a hazard to other users on this multi-use path”
– “It is not about a hazard to you, but the hazard you pose to others”

[NickBull]

@AFHokie 108684 wrote:

Nick,
Since you’ve professed a hate for novice cyclists, I’ll ask the question. Your first time riding a bike; were you then an expert cyclist as you are now?

I’m sorry you were injured in a crash, but shouldn’t you also slow down by the TR Island parking lot? To experience injuries as you described suggests an amount of speed in an area most agree is a place often congested with pedestrian and cyclist traffic.

You can quit making generalizations; these links will help you out:
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Bicycle/
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Bicycles
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/

I’ve got to ask; are you the guy behind ‘gems’ like these on Strava?

– “Flagged because KOM chasers pose a hazard to other users on this multi-use path”
– “It is not about a hazard to you, but the hazard you pose to others”

Find me the quote where I “professed a hate for novice cyclists.” I said I hate cyclists who endanger me. You like those cyclists?

I wasn’t in the parking lot. She was. 8am. Not congested. I was coming down the ramp from the curlicue Mt Vernon crossing and had just come around the corner so I was going about 10 to 12 mph. But by the time I realized she was accelerating instead of braking, there wasn’t time to completely stop before the ramp from the parking lot up to the trail, which was her objective. FWIW, the upshot was that having admitted fault, she bought me a new bicycle, having destroyed mine.

Never used Strava but the fact that you would quote those two items suggests you think they’re somehow inappropriate. To me, they seem like good advice. Do you think it is good to encourage racing on trails like the Custis?

[83b]

@NickBull 108661 wrote:

And … just to reply to the dislike from 83(b). Somehow, I just don’t find it particularly bothersome to know that some anonymous person who hasn’t enough courage to use their own name doesn’t like my post

My name is Ryan. I’m a tax lawyer who lives on Lincoln Park in Capitol Hill. My wife and I keep a Little Free Library out front for the neighbors. In ’07 I replaced my car with an electric cargo bike and I ride it all over town, typically in a suit and tie.^[1] Occasionally I ride it on the local trails, since they’re really the only way to, for example, get from DC to my dentist in Crystal City. You’re welcome to view my Strava profile and judge for yourself if I ride like a jerk. I just got back from a business trip worthy of a Homeric epic, and I sorely missed my bikes and the chance to unwind on my commute. I’m a Virgo, can’t dance to save my life, and suffer from crippling self-doubt that I’m just faking my way through being an “adult.”

To elaborate on my earlier “dislike,” I disagree with your assertion that any electric vehicle with two wheels and a motor is a “motorcycle.” I didn’t see any point in wading into a debate with you though. Ebikes aren’t going away because you don’t like them. And blanket hate for anyone who rides one doesn’t help regarding how best to educate/shame novices/jerks or deal with people who want to build highly-powered setups at home. But you felt threatened by someone and wanted to vent a little online. That’s something I’ve certainly taken to this very forum to do. And I’ve even been a jerk about it a time or two.

^[1] And I don’t believe that I fit the profile of a novice cyclist. I was a shop mechanic for DC-based BikesUSA from age 14 through college and I built my current ebike myself.

[Raymo853]

@AFHokie 108684 wrote:

I’ve got to ask; are you the guy behind ‘gems’ like these on Strava?

– “Flagged because KOM chasers pose a hazard to other users on this multi-use path”
– “It is not about a hazard to you, but the hazard you pose to others”

I am not sure about all of “message/nagging title segments”, but I made that second one in response to the ones threatening me by name. My segment was originally titled with a response to the author of the threats and included my Strava user name and contact info in the title. The threatening segments got deleted quickly after I posted here about them, so I then changed the title to something more generic.

[Author]

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