Better to say something? Or keep quiet?
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Dirt.
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December 7, 2013 at 12:39 pm #987894
Henry
KeymasterSo what’s the rule on riding between lines of cars stopped at lights? Or up the left hand side between cars and the curb?
Henry
December 7, 2013 at 2:00 pm #987897lordofthemark
ParticipantMaybe I’ve missed something, but to the folks who wait out every red light as a matter of principle, do you do a foot down stop at every stop sign too? The safety issues may be different, but the rule of law argument is not, and perhaps the “optics” argument is not. I have no red lights anyplace I ride regularly that tempt me to violate the law (so much traffic, so few signalized intersections) but stop signs are another matter.
Here for example, I think I can use my own judgement as to how completely to stop. Am I incorrect? (note I’m referring to the sign on the service lane at the McD’s, not the one for traffic crossing LRT)
December 7, 2013 at 2:53 pm #987900Dirt
Participant@Henry 71263 wrote:
So what’s the rule on riding between lines of cars stopped at lights? Or up the left hand side between cars and the curb?
Henry
Hi Henry. That’s called Lane Splitting. In DC it is legal. I don’t know about Virginia and Maryland. I generally don’t do it in any of the jurisdictions. That’s me though. I tend to sit in a line of cars unless it is a very wide lane and I can ride to the front of the line with 2 feet to spare.
Edit: From VDOT’s web site: “Bicyclists must not ride between two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction unless one lane is a separate or mandatory turn lane.”
December 7, 2013 at 3:05 pm #987902Dirt
Participant@lordofthemark 71266 wrote:
Maybe I’ve missed something, but to the folks who wait out every red light as a matter of principle, do you do a foot down stop at every stop sign too?
My understanding is that the law says you must come to a complete stop, but says nothing about putting a foot down. From time to time, Falls Church has enforcement efforts aimed at ticketing or warning people who don’t stop for a full 3 seconds. I am completely guilty of not stopping for a full 3 seconds most of the time. Usually I roll to a stop… or very, very close to a stop, then proceed forward. There is the law that Loudoun County recently enacted that says you have to put your foot down at trail stop signs. I generally do that in Loudoun. Since that one is new, I sometimes forget.
From VDOT’s web site on Bicycle Rules and Regulations: “Bicyclists and other users of shared use paths crossing highways at clearly marked crosswalks must come to a complete stop at stop signs prior to entering such crosswalk.”
December 7, 2013 at 6:31 pm #987908jnva
ParticipantDecember 9, 2013 at 5:48 pm #988018mikoglaces
Participant@Dirt 71269 wrote:
Hi Henry. That’s called Lane Splitting. In DC it is legal. I don’t know about Virginia and Maryland. I generally don’t do it in any of the jurisdictions. That’s me though. I tend to sit in a line of cars unless it is a very wide lane and I can ride to the front of the line with 2 feet to spare.
Edit: From VDOT’s web site: “Bicyclists must not ride between two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction unless one lane is a separate or mandatory turn lane.”
I thought I was the only guy who waited in a line of cars. Going through Georgetown in the morning I pretty much take the middle lane and ride like a car and wait in traffic and watch as cyclists pass me on the right (often only to get held up further on, though not always). I have stopped riding through Georgetown at night, preferring the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge, but when I do ride through Georgetown at night I don’t split lanes, at least not when they are moving. I think it’s very dangerous. I will sometimes split lanes when they aren’t moving but even then they are going to start moving at some point so I am conservative about it but I have to admit that I do it when Georgetown traffic is not moving.
One of my favorite folk songs involves a driver who exercises his second amendment rights when a motorcyclist splits the lane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCnir5KlXEw Don’t want that to happen to me.
December 9, 2013 at 8:03 pm #988039Drewdane
ParticipantI don’t lane split outside of DC, since my ‘burbs riding is almost exclusively on trails. In DC, I generally don’t feel a need to lane split except on G Street through GWU on my way to TR Bridge during evening rush hour – if I didn’t lane split then, I’d likely die of old age before getting to 23th St and FREEEDOOOM!!!
December 9, 2013 at 8:18 pm #988042dasgeh
ParticipantFWIW, on stop signs, I stop… ish. If there is any indication of anyone else around, I completely stop. If I know the area well and there’s no one else around (and no kids on the bike), I may not get completely down to 0 mph, though I always, always, always slow to the point where I could stop. Of course, I may exhibit the same behavior in a car. And, just like in a car, I do not define “stopping” by putting a foot down.
The “rule of law” difference is that this law is pretty far gone. There were days where cops would check whether your car rolled back at a stop sign, and people generally come to a full stop every time. Not so much now, at least around here – cars keep rolling, even in front of cops, most of the time. Red lights, however, are still honored (ok, maybe not at the very beginning of the red, but in the middle certainly).
We’ve discussed “filtering” (riding on the side of the lane/parking lane when the cars are stopped) and “lane splitting” (riding on the side of the lane/parking lane when other cars beside you are moving). I never lane split. At times I filter. I believe that filtering is legal in DC on the left or right, and that it’s legal in VA only on the right. I only filter when I know the area and have a good view of what’s coming because I love my life, my husband and my kids. In fact, that’s why I do most of the things I do on a bike.
December 9, 2013 at 8:39 pm #988046kcb203
Participant@Dirt 71269 wrote:
Hi Henry. That’s called Lane Splitting. In DC it is legal. I don’t know about Virginia and Maryland. I generally don’t do it in any of the jurisdictions. That’s me though. I tend to sit in a line of cars unless it is a very wide lane and I can ride to the front of the line with 2 feet to spare.
Edit: From VDOT’s web site: “Bicyclists must not ride between two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction unless one lane is a separate or mandatory turn lane.”
As I read these arguably conflicting provisions of Virginia law (46.2-907), you can’t ride exactly in the middle between two lanes, but you can if you’re on one side of the line or the other and therefore are in one lane but not “between two lanes”:
A person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, or moped may overtake and pass another vehicle on either the left or right side, staying in the same lane as the overtaken vehicle, or changing to a different lane, or riding off the roadway as necessary to pass with safety.
A person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, motorized skateboard or foot-scooter, or moped shall not travel between two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction, except where one lane is a separate turn lane or a mandatory turn lane.
December 9, 2013 at 8:43 pm #988048Geoff
Participant@Henry 71263 wrote:
So what’s the rule on riding between lines of cars stopped at lights? Or up the left hand side between cars and the curb?
I sometimes go up the right hand side (of the street) between cars and curb, when the cars are stopped. Never had reason to go up the left. The idea of going between lines of cars gives me the willies. But what really makes my jaw drop is watching riders go through a red light in DC WHEN THERE ARE CARS MOVING THROUGH THE INTERSECTION. Sorry for shouting, I do that when my jaw drops.
December 9, 2013 at 9:45 pm #988050lordofthemark
Participant@dasgeh 71427 wrote:
FWIW, on stop signs, I stop… ish. If there is any indication of anyone else around, I completely stop. If I know the area well and there’s no one else around (and no kids on the bike), I may not get completely down to 0 mph, though I always, always, always slow to the point where I could stop. Of course, I may exhibit the same behavior in a car. And, just like in a car, I do not define “stopping” by putting a foot down.
Maybe you can balance better than I can, but I don’t think I can really come to a complete stop on my bike and stay upright without putting my foot down (maybe I should try that though), whereas I can in my car. I do come to a complete stop in my car at places where “stoppish” (IE slow down and yield) is good enough on a bike. For all the reasonst that my car is different from my bike – its better able to kill someone, its harder to see from, and regaining momentum from a full stop is not that big a deal (I mean it may effect my average MPG, but it doesn’t leave me more exhausted at the end of a long drive, nor is its impact on my speed as significant).
So I think its clear I am behaving differently than in my car. And thats alright.
I understand folks who never want to disobey any law – and I thank them for obeying all laws (including a complete stop at stop signs when biking or driving, driving within the speed limit, etc)
I understand folks who make a judgement based on a reasoned view of their own safety and the safety of others (whether or not they include ‘optics’ in that judgement)
I guess I also understand folks who have decided that the rule of law matters to them, but carve out exceptions based on the law being disrespected equally across modes.
I’m not sure I feel right calling one approach or the other better though. Each one has its problems and contradictions. (note, I believe I ride pretty much the way you do both wrt to stop signs and traffic signals)
December 1, 2014 at 4:41 pm #1016024americancyclo
Participant@dasgeh 71056 wrote:
I stop. Every time. And I wait through the light. Every time.
I usually get passed by others as I wait at the light. Maybe 10% of the time(?) someone waits behind me. I’m not sure the last time I came up behind someone already waiting. Another 10% of the time (?), someone waits behind me for a bit (longer than it takes for the cars to clear) then jumps the light. I find this to be the silliest behavior because by that point the counter tells you that it’s about to turn green. Jumping a light with 5 seconds left just seems silly — you’ve just confirmed the whole “cyclists are scofflaws” image and put yourself in danger (because a car could come around a corner) for 5 seconds?!?!? But I try to channel my inner Dirt.
Going downhill, jumping the light at Nash is particularly silly, as you’ll get caught by the light at Fort Myer. You may think those last seconds of red at Fort Myer are safe to go, but during that time, cars turning onto NB GWMP have green, and sometimes they basically make a U-turn and come screaming down Fort Myer to make that light. I’ve seen a couple close calls from cyclists assuming the coast was clear. Also, you can get to the leading signal at Lynn with just a little effort. So much safer to just wait.
So wave next time you pass me as I wait for a light. I’ll be the one waiting for the light (with the yellow bike, yellow handlebar tape, panniers…). Or better yet, stop and say hi
I’ve been converted to stopping at the light at the top of the custis hill in rosslyn since i found out there is little to no difference in time saved by jumping the light at N. Scott. but today, i remembered to turn on the video camera,so everyone can see!
December 1, 2014 at 5:51 pm #1016033Greenbelt
ParticipantI sometimes filter through traffic on the right in downtown DC to get out front and visible at lights, starting up with the pedestrian leading-interval when possible (assuming there’s no one running the red on the cross street). Very easy to get doored, though, if there’s a parking lane or from a jump out from the passenger side when filtering up. Taxis and buses/trucks I rarely filter past, since so unpredictable.
Going to the front to the bike box (real or imagined) allows me to get up to speed so that when the cars take off I’m already a bit ahead and going the same speed by the time they get going. I think I’m safer going approx the same speed as cars, and they notice me better when I’m moving, rather than stopped. Also since they put exhaust pipes in the back of cars and trucks, I breathe better off the front.
December 1, 2014 at 7:37 pm #1016042Orestes Munn
ParticipantI used to ride like a complete hooligan and I’m still not afraid to mix it up in traffic. However, in these hyper-political times, I find I’m more concerned with “optics.” It’s funny to go riding with my wife, who hasn’t done much riding since we were both in grad/med school back in the 80s, and have her wait for me on the far sides of intersections, where I now make a show of observing the niceties.
My late father, who taught me to ride in the streets and avenues of Manhattan, always stopped at reds and made it clear he did so to establish his vehicular bona fides. He took crap from no one when he sallied forth on his Rudge Sports. Maybe I’m just becoming him.
December 1, 2014 at 8:05 pm #1016044baiskeli
Participant@Geoff 71019 wrote:
This morning I was on the Custis, on the downward slope into Rosslyn, and stopped for a red light. Full disclosure: if the coast had been clear, I would have crossed against the light. But the coast was not clear. Another cyclist coming up from Rosslyn crossed against the light in front of the car. Nothing bad happened, no horn, no squeal of brakes. But I said to the guy “Dangerous!” as he passed me. I didn’t quite hear his reply but it sounded like a quaint colloquialism for “Mind your own business.”
Well, perhaps if you two had had more time to discuss it, he might have said that if “nothing bad happened, no horn, no squeal of brakes” then why was it any more dangerous than the times you run the light?
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