BAFS 2020 teams and rules discussion

[chuxtr]

@ChristoB50 193828 wrote:

Looks like the sample listing from Steve did include the 10 base points — otherwise, a 1-mile ride as shown above won’t tally to “20 points”.

Yup. Me not paying attention.

[LhasaCM]

@chuxtr 193817 wrote:

THOUGHTS???

FWIW – I think keeping the 10 points/day bonus on top of the mileage scoring changes proposed above would further the stated goal of “getting people to ride more often” by strengthening the incentive for getting out there (or, for the flip side of that coin, raises the bar that much more for “riding more miles to make up for missing a day”). I say this as someone whose behavior has already been modified by Freezing Saddles 2017 so the scoring system going forward will have zero impact on how much I actually ride.

[jen_stoly]

Changing the mileage scoring would definitely motivate me to participate this year. I did FS for the first time two years ago. I rode at least 1 mile a day for every day of the competition, but I rarely rode more than 50 miles a week. So, it would be great if my modest efforts contributed more to my team. I also like the idea of capping team points. I am agnostic on the idea of local teams. Most of my team was from outside DC (I live right near Union Station), but it was fun to meet new people and I count new friends from the experience. That said, I would probably opt for a local team if that’s an option.

[Nadine]

I neglected to mention in my previous comments…. My vote on the team contribution cap question is either no cap or a higher one (150miles /week would do – 200 would be fine too.)

I rode LESS last year (fs 2019) because of the team points contribution cap. I’m motivated much more by the team points contribution thing than by the idea of getting high up on the individual standings list (though I was probably additionally counter motivated last year by the company of my furloughed husband, who I can’t convince to ride in the nice weather these years so not happening in the [emoji3063][emoji2356].)

The only year I got kinda high up on the individual standings was when Lynn Salvo was training to break one of her world records (I think 2018, when she was training for the cross Canada one.) That’s because I’m the most motivated by riding company… [emoji16] That was the year Lynn finished 1st & Joan 12th…. I finished 27th I think, so still the lazy musketeer . [emoji16]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nadine]

Oh also I love multi team group rides. So many people I wanna ride with! Even if teams were made with an eye for putting friends together (the opposite of how it’s done, and rightly so) I’m sure I wanna ride with at least 3-5 teams worth of people…. [emoji3]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hancockbs]

@matteblack 193418 wrote:

As for the whole commuting thing, I guess that rules me out since I work from home full-time. That being said, I pretty much ride every day (well, 5-6 x week on average) so take that for what it’s worth (or not).

That all being said, I’m competitive by nature and found that this kept me motivated to ride outside.

Heartily agree. Understanding the issue with DC commuters living close to work and not riding as far as MD and VA commuters, I still pull for local groups to enhance the social aspect, but will ride either way.

[Steve O]

@LhasaCM 193841 wrote:

I say this as someone whose behavior has already been modified by Freezing Saddles 2017 so the scoring system going forward will have zero impact on how much I actually ride.

I think this is fairly common among “veteran” players. Freezing Saddles has little additional affect on how much many of us ride, because earlier years playing the game got us in the winter groove.
Keeping that in mind, it makes sense to think more about the newbies than the vets in regards to devising scoring schemes.

[LhasaCM]

@Steve O 193891 wrote:

I think this is fairly common among “veteran” players. Freezing Saddles has little additional affect on how much many of us ride, because earlier years playing the game got us in the winter groove.
Keeping that in mind, it makes sense to think more about the newbies than the vets in regards to devising scoring schemes.

Agreed. Hence the implied (now explicit) conclusion in what preceded that excerpt that the 2017 scoring system, which included 10 points per day, was motivational for then newbie-me to ride even on days where maybe I didn’t quite feel like it. Clearly, I was already interested in the notion of riding more often (that’s why I signed up), but knowing that my ability to “make it up” was rather limited given that pesky little thing called “life” and “responsibilities”, the daily bonus was key in pushing me over the edge, getting me out there every day regardless, allowing me to see it wasn’t actually that bad, and now I am where I am.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that, as noted previously, I think keeping an additional “congrats you went outside today” bonus is important.

[obscurerichard]

@Nadine 193818 wrote:

But is the graded points for the first 10 miles / day something Jon and Obscure Richard can do without too much trouble? If it’s just a simple program rewrite, I vote yes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is totally doable – and thank you for thinking of me & Jon!

[obscurerichard]

@ChristoB50 193822 wrote:

I like the plan! I agree that the “front-loading” of higher points on the early miles should help motivate newbies or on-the-fence riders to get a few miles in each day at least. The “sleaze” single-mile ride, worth 20 points alone, would almost become a guaranteed must-do every day!
I don’t currently have Strava — are miles tabulated with decimal places? (So, would you round down, or up, for fractional miles?)

I ran my Feb 2019 rides through the new points calc… I had 18 riding days, each over 10 miles (so, old system points = 360 I think?)
Average ride was 22miles; month total was 402. New points system would value it all at 1,392 points I believe.

PS — is the “daily base points” of 10 useful in this points model? ie, if a 1 mile ride is the minimum ride to get ANY points for a day — and so everyone who rides in BAFS, rides at least 1 mile per ride day to get on the board — then everyone gets that same base 10 points (before tabulating their miles-points) and it seems essentially like an unnecessary constant in every rider’s score…?
{Edit; yeah, I guess it has a usefulness after thinking more on it – ie, for riders who managed to ride say, 100% of days, vs. riders who managed 50% of days…}

CORRECTION: I had written: Points in the system are integers only and mileage decimals are is truncated to the when calculating points. So a 2.0 mile ride, a 2.1 mile ride and a 2.95 mile ride count as a 2 mile ride for the purposes of calculating Freezing Saddles points. Instead, I should have written that points in the system are real numbers and fractional mile rides above the 1 mile threshold accrue points.

The rough consensus that is building both among the riders and organizers is to use the declining balance point scheme where you get 10 points for mile 1, 9 for 2, etc down to 1 point for mile 10+, keep the 10 point bonus to the 1st mile so that the 1st mile is worth 20 points, and remove the point cap.

ADDENDUM: This also means that there will be a step function for determining the points for each mile and any fractional miles will count at the lower point multiplier, so a 1.5 mile ride would count for (10+10 + 9 * 0.5 = 24.5) points.

[EasyRider]

Apologies if this has been stated already, but “remove the point cap” refers to eliminating the limit on the number of “team points” an individual rider could contribute in a week, is that right? So all points under the proposed scoring system would count towards “team points”?

If so, I’m not opposed, and it would make things more interesting for high-mileage riders and “star players”. Under last year’s system, my motivation was to maximize my team points contribution. Along with the sleaze rides, it generally meant I rode 7 days a week instead of 5 and probably an extra 30-40 miles per week. I’d miss having the explicit target/cap for team points. On the other hand, if the new system made the leaderboard rankings was more dynamic, that would also motivate me to ride more than my usual commute.

All of which is to say I like where this is going, and thanks to the organizers.

[obscurerichard]

@EasyRider 194062 wrote:

Apologies if this has been stated already, but “remove the point cap” refers to eliminating the limit on the number of “team points” an individual rider could contribute in a week, is that right? So all points under the proposed scoring system would count towards “team points”?

If so, I’m not opposed, and it would make things more interesting for high-mileage riders and “star players”. Under last year’s system, my motivation was to maximize my team points contribution. Along with the sleaze rides, it generally meant I rode 7 days a week instead of 5 and probably an extra 30-40 miles per week. I’d miss having the explicit target/cap for team points. On the other hand, if the new system made the leaderboard rankings was more dynamic, that would also motivate me to ride more than my usual commute.

All of which is to say I like where this is going, and thanks to the organizers.

You have this exactly right – the number of team points a rider can contribute per week will no longer be capped. The distinction between team points and individual points will disappear this year, since we have a compensating control – a progressive points boost for the first miles greater than 1 and less than 10 ridden in a day.

[Jim B]

Mileage Cap – I liked the 2019 limit at 100 miles for team points. 100 miles/week became my goal in BAFS 2019. It gave me a weekly mileage goal to give everything I could for the team.

More local teams – I like this idea to make the teams more local. More local teams should make for stronger camaraderie among teammates. I only met about half of my teammates in BAFS 2019 although our team was formed late. Teams would be stronger if all teammates meet one another in person at least once either at a happy hour or team ride.

Totally random teams – I’d prefer that team assignments be made based on past BAFS mileage as well as anticipated BAFS 2020 mileage so that the teams are more competitive in total team points.

Smaller team size – I like this idea. A smaller team size should make for stronger camaraderie among teammates and encourage teammates to bike more. But I’m also ok with keeping the teams at 10 riders.

Point system – I liked the 2019 point system: 10 points for the first ride mile of the day (as an incentive to ride) but 1 point for every mile afterwards.

I liked Subby’s idea to drop the lowest mileage rider for each team when calculating team points. Taking this one step further, if we stay with teams of 10 we could consider dropping the 2 lowest mileage riders for each team when calculating team points as this could increase the competition among the teams. This could hopefully encourage the lowest 2 team point riders to step up their miles to climb out of the bottom 2 spots on the team, could encourage the top riders to also step up their miles to compete with the other teams, would help cover teams for their non-performers or for those who fall ill or sustain injury, etc.

About the non-performers, this is a freezing saddle competition to encourage riders to get out on their bikes during the winter. If bikers don’t get out on their bikes enough either from a lack of motivation or injury or illness, they should maybe be replaced with someone on the waiting list, like a Triple-A call-up to the majors when a baseball player doesn’t perform. Should we set a minimum requirement that a rider must bike at least 3 days/week and bike maybe at least 20 miles/week to remain in the competition?

And if any biker drops down to Triple-A they can remain in good standing on the waiting list to be called back up as long as they bike at least 3 days/week and at least 20 miles/week? Or should it be lowered to 15 miles/week?

And when they get called back-up preference would be given that they be placed back on their original team but they could end up on any team. This all should be encouragement to meet the minimum ride days and ride miles each week.

[musclys]

@josh 193356 wrote:

I like Subby’s idea he tossed out earlier this year — individual leaderboard is based solely on miles ridden (no cap), team leaderboard is based solely on days ridden (at least 1 mile). I’m indifferent to the size of teams, but I like local teams (although they’re more of a pain to set up). Alternatively, we could select captains from a volunteer pool, and have them draft players (this is cycling, drafting is important right?).

I’m indifferent to all of Subby’s ideas, but I love the idea of drafting players. But ONLY if feelings get hurt.

[drevil]

Throwing another idea in the ring.

1. Get the list of final results from this year: https://freezingsaddles.org/leaderboard/individual_text
2. Chunk it out into groups of 10, starting #1-10, #11-20, #21-30, etc.
3. The middle team’s points are 1 mile = 1 point
4. The top team’s points are 1 mile = .1 point
5. The last team’s points are 1 = 10 points
6. All the inbetween teams are scaled on that

See, that was easy

PS – how the hizzity did I end up in 4th place? That ain’t right.

[Author]

Posts