Another Rear-Ender on GWP

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 19470 wrote:

The most low hanging fruit on this road is to ENFORCE THE SPEED LIMIT. It’s an absolute joke. I believe it’s 25mph here, but driving that slowly is a hazard, because no one does. We’re all used to speed cameras now — install them with great fanfare, and everyone will be safer.[/CODE]

Yep. Except it may actually be cheaper to put in passive speed controls than stationing an officer there all day.

With regard to the law – whatever it may be, it’s clearly more complicated than “X has the right of way.”

[DaveK]

@baiskeli 19471 wrote:

Yep. Except it may actually be cheaper to put in passive speed controls than stationing an officer there all day.

It’s always better to design a road properly in the first place than to try and patch it up on the back end with artificially low speed limits and forests of signs that will fade into the background after a few weeks. Speed cameras do lower speeds, but they also produce legions of drivers watching to see where the camera is and where the signs are, not paying attention to people trying to cross the road.

The answer to the right-of-way question is, since it’s unclear, to assign the right-of-way. Signalize the crossing. Then there’s no question.

Traffic signals are relatively inexpensive, and this location only needs a mast arm, two pedestrian signals, and two signal heads. No coordination needed either. With installation it wouldn’t be much more than $200k. Peanuts for an improvement that will save lives.

…but oh wait, the viewshed…

[consularrider]

@dasgeh 19470 wrote:

The most low hanging fruit on this road is to ENFORCE THE SPEED LIMIT. It’s an absolute joke. I believe it’s 25mph here, but driving that slowly is a hazard, because no one does. We’re all used to speed cameras now — install them with great fanfare, and everyone will be safer.

I don’t drive this road more than once or twice a year, but ride that trail about ten times a week. I think the speed limit in the section of the GW Parkway with the pedestrian crossing is 40 MPH, at least that’s what I seem to remember on the closest speed limit sign as you head north. I’ll try and take another look this evening or Monday morning.

[mstone]

@baiskeli 19469 wrote:

Thanks for this post.

I think part of the confusion is that it’s more complicated than either party having the right of way, as I’ve learned myself after thinking this through and reading about it.

In the absence of stop signs, a motor vehicle has the right of way when it doesn’t have time to stop. A ped/cyclist cannot just jump out in front in that situation. This is obviously common sense anyway. A ped/cyclist has the right-of-way when he/she decides it is safe, and goes into the crosswalk. Cars then must give way. This is also just common sense. It boils down to doing what’s safe anyway.

Or at least that’s how I understand it. I’m sure there are people here who know it better than I do. I hadn’t thought that much about it even after years of cycling. I can imagine many people who drive think even less.

I think you’re the one overcomplicating it. Yes, the pedestrian is not supposed to jump out in front of traffic. That does not negate the obligation of the car to stop and yield the right of way. I.e., the car is supposed to stop when there’s someone waiting to cross, not speed up and say, “hah, he’s not allowed to step in front of me!” Police won’t enforce anything there that might slow down traffic, but that doesn’t mean they’re right. Current situation is that cars feel no obligation to allow pedestrians to cross there, and the NPS tickets people who actually do follow the law. They should be ashamed of themselves, and held personally liable when people get killed there.

[Brendan von Buckingham]

There’s more than one crossing there. I use the one just south of the circle. Others have problems at the crossing for cars going under Memorial Bridge. Both suck. According to GSV the last MPH sign before the south circle crossing is 25 MPH. Ha! I find I have little problem in the morning; most everyone is in their everyday routine. Cars and bikes know the drill and volume keeps speeds near 25. Afternoon is very different. Routines are scattered, cabbies and tourists are flying out of National Airport, and speeds are closer to 50.

Even though I will follow over dead when I see it, an NPS patrol car enforcing the speed limit just before these crossings will have an effect. No need to get NCPC approval for a signal or road redesign. No need to wait for a capitol budget. Just an officer assigned to protect and serve one hour every evening rush hour.

Hell, while I have my expectations set at Yeah Right, I’ll throw in repaving of the south side of the Memorial Bridge sidewalk. It was a mild winter, but the paving got worse anyway. Cement patches are popping out of the large aggregate concrete, which is what happens when you mix incompatible materials with different rates of expansion and contraction.

[rcannon100]

My understanding is that police interpret the law the way baiskeli is stating it. A ped should not enter the cross walk until it is clear; and cars are under no obligation to stop until the ped is actually in the cross walk (standing on the side of the road does not count).

[KLizotte]

@rcannon100 19485 wrote:

My understanding is that police interpret the law the way baiskeli is stating it. A ped should not enter the cross walk until it is clear; and cars are under no obligation to stop until the ped is actually in the cross walk (standing on the side of the road does not count).

That is essentially what Arlington PD told us last year when we met to discuss the Rosslyn intersection. So much for the least protected having priority!

[napes]

One way to make right of way more clear would be a different sign. A less visually disruptive option than a full traffic light would be to take a step back in technology and have a mechanical switchable signal like they used to have with mechanical railroad switches. Sort of like this,
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1011[/ATTACH]

except what would rotate would be the stop sign itself. Put a spring-mounted handle on the Stop sign, and the pedestrian/bicyclist could then alert motorists that they actually want to cross, and that they aren’t just standing there at the crosswalk because it’s a park-like environment. You, know, something like:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1012[/ATTACH]

This will no doubt take time and money to implement, since we can only harvest a couple of stop signs like this from any given school bus, and a new school bus costs about $75,000, I hear.

[dasgeh]

@Brendan von Buckingham 19484 wrote:

There’s more than one crossing there.

Not to be nit-picky, but there are three crossings from the South side of Memorial Bridge and all are technically on different roads. The crossing to continue towards the cemetery crosses the ramp between Washington Blvd and Memorial Circle. To get to the MVT, you cross two roads: closest to the bridge, it crosses “Washington Blvd”, and down the hill, closer to the river, it crosses “the George Washington Parkway”. This seems to be the common parlance on this forum, and it helps to be clear about what we’re talking about.

Personally, I cross the ramp every day, and think it sucks, but my understanding is that it’s nothing compared to the last crossing at the GWP.

[mstone]

@Brendan von Buckingham 19484 wrote:

Even though I will follow over dead when I see it, an NPS patrol car enforcing the speed limit just before these crossings will have an effect. No need to get NCPC approval for a signal or road redesign. No need to wait for a capitol budget. Just an officer assigned to protect and serve one hour every evening rush hour.

The only reason an NPS officer would be stationed there would be to ticket cars for stopping for pedestrians.

[baiskeli]

@DaveK 19479 wrote:

It’s always better to design a road properly in the first place than to try and patch it up on the back end with artificially low speed limits and forests of signs that will fade into the background after a few weeks. Speed cameras do lower speeds, but they also produce legions of drivers watching to see where the camera is and where the signs are, not paying attention to people trying to cross the road.

The answer to the right-of-way question is, since it’s unclear, to assign the right-of-way. Signalize the crossing. Then there’s no question.

Traffic signals are relatively inexpensive, and this location only needs a mast arm, two pedestrian signals, and two signal heads. No coordination needed either. With installation it wouldn’t be much more than $200k. Peanuts for an improvement that will save lives.

…but oh wait, the viewshed…

I could go for that.

[baiskeli]

While we’re on the subject – what’s going on with the north side of the bridge, where they fenced off that dirt crossing?

I saw too cyclists trying to cross on the grass WAY north. Clearly lost.

That area really needs signs directing people to the proper way to get from the MVT to the bridge.

[Steve O]

Seems like some sort of speed control, like speed humps, would make a big difference. It would force the cars down to 20-25, which would allow for easier crossing by cyclists and reduced likelihood of rear-ending. Slowing them down for 100 yards or so would add a few seconds to their trip, so I doubt it would ever be an acceptable solution.

[Author]

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