Another Rear-Ender on GWP

[creadinger]

@Greenbelt 19429 wrote:

Not to be all radical or anything, but why not just install a stop sign at the crosswalk? I’m guessing that nowhere in the NPS authorization does it say they’re obliged to build and maintain free speedways for commuters. The problem seems to be this unchangeable mindset that the NPS parkways are supposed to be like interstates or something. It seems like a faulty assumption that won’t die. A stop sign would slow traffic down at a very dangerous crossing. Why not? Is it really authorized from Congress that it’s supposed to be a speedway with no stops?

I’m a driver too and I definitely would not want a stop sign there. It just wouldn’t be practical. Like Dave said, the volume of car traffic compared to the volume of bike/ped traffic just doesn’t make sense for a stop sign. Given the fact that it IS in fact a freeway, I can’t imagine the anger and backlash from all of those angry drivers who now get backed up in more traffic because of a stop sign in the middle of the GWP for a cross-walk.

[rcannon100]

I would seriously suggest that there are low hanging fruit solutions that could be implemented that would not cost $8 m. There is the simple of installing bollards, to the more complex of realigning the roads. The roads are spagetti there bc there were designed when the primary road was Rt 50. When Rt 66 was installed, everything was rearranged. And in the decades and decades since Rt 66, NPS has refused to untangle that mess (NB to Rt 50 goes under the memorial bridge for almost no reason – realign that, and you could have a full width bike path under the bridge). Now note, they have done major renovations of that area, basically rebuilding to the status quo. Memorial circle was renovated just a few years ago. They reduced it from like three lanes to two lanes, with a side brick lane thing on the side.

When the renovations are going to occur anyways, doing redesign to make the route safer is all but a deminimis cost.

[TwoWheelsDC]

I saw a ped get struck here while I was riding my motorcycle and have almost been rear ended as well…it’s just a terrible intersection all around. I drive 1-2x a week and sweat this intersection every time. On one hand, I want to stop for peds, but on the other, I don’t want to get nailed when the person driving behind me is texting or whatever and can’t stop in time. Even just some of those squiggly white lines and maybe a flashing yellow light that says “crosswalk ahead, lookout for peds” or something like that. Right now, the crosswalk sign is located right at the crosswalk and, at 50mph, it’s difficult to see (I won’t even get into the speed issues on the pkwy…). A sign a bit further from the crosswalk would at least alert people that they need to keep their eyes up…many people now just don’t expect the crosswalk given the freeway-ish design of the road.

Something as simple as this…(if you want to see them in person, there is a set at the W&OD and Belmont Ridge Rd. just east of Leesburg)

[baiskeli]

@jabberwocky 13571 wrote:

Thats a failure of the environmental movement in general, IMO. They promote stuff like hybrid cars without really paying a lot of attention to getting people to simply drive less. I got into an argument with a coworker at my previous job who was berating me for driving my WRX (mpg=20 on a good day) and proudly stating that she was going to get a prius to consume less gas. I pointed out that I biked to work 90% of the time, and even if I was driving a hummer I’d be consuming far less gas a month than her. She said she couldn’t bike because she had a bad back. :rolleyes:

I call it eco-fashion, though greenwashing is a good term as well.

I agree that some, but not all, of the enviro movement isn’t focused on the right goals or argument sometimes (I speak as one).

Greenwashing, though, means complete fakery.

[baiskeli]

@rcannon100 19433 wrote:

I would seriously suggest that there are low hanging fruit solutions that could be implemented that would not cost $8 m. There is the simple of installing bollards, to the more complex of realigning the roads. The roads are spagetti there bc there were designed when the primary road was Rt 50. When Rt 66 was installed, everything was rearranged. And in the decades and decades since Rt 66, NPS has refused to untangle that mess (NB to Rt 50 goes under the memorial bridge for almost no reason – realign that, and you could have a full width bike path under the bridge). Now note, they have done major renovations of that area, basically rebuilding to the status quo. Memorial circle was renovated just a few years ago. They reduced it from like three lanes to two lanes, with a side brick lane thing on the side.

When the renovations are going to occur anyways, doing redesign to make the route safer is all but a deminimis cost.

My solution is narrowing it to one lane at that point. Slows traffic AND makes it safer to cross, and eliminates the problem of one lane stopping but not the other. But the drivers will go berzerk and it will never happen.

[mstone]

@TwoWheelsDC 19434 wrote:

I saw a ped get struck here while I was riding my motorcycle and have almost been rear ended as well…it’s just a terrible intersection all around. I drive 1-2x a week and sweat this intersection every time. On one hand, I want to stop for peds, but on the other, I don’t want to get nailed when the person driving behind me is texting or whatever and can’t stop in time. Even just some of those squiggly white lines and maybe a flashing yellow light that says “crosswalk ahead, lookout for peds” or something like that. Right now, the crosswalk sign is located right at the crosswalk and, at 50mph, it’s difficult to see (I won’t even get into the speed issues on the pkwy…). A sign a bit further from the crosswalk would at least alert people that they need to keep their eyes up…many people now just don’t expect the crosswalk given the freeway-ish design of the road.

Something as simple as this…(if you want to see them in person, there is a set at the W&OD and Belmont Ridge Rd. just east of Leesburg)

Americans don’t know what to do with that. I recently made fun of the ones “protecting” people on the W&OD, as they certainly haven’t made people change their driving behavior there.

[DaveK]

@mstone 19439 wrote:

Americans don’t know what to do with that. I recently made fun of the ones “protecting” people on the W&OD, as they certainly haven’t made people change their driving behavior there.

You’d be surprised – http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern_virginia/2011/zig-zag_pavement_markings_have50600.asp

Obviously not a complete, “job well done” sort of improvement, but every little bit helps.

[Terpfan]

@rcannon100 19433 wrote:

I would seriously suggest that there are low hanging fruit solutions that could be implemented that would not cost $8 m. There is the simple of installing bollards, to the more complex of realigning the roads. The roads are spagetti there bc there were designed when the primary road was Rt 50. When Rt 66 was installed, everything was rearranged. And in the decades and decades since Rt 66, NPS has refused to untangle that mess (NB to Rt 50 goes under the memorial bridge for almost no reason – realign that, and you could have a full width bike path under the bridge). Now note, they have done major renovations of that area, basically rebuilding to the status quo. Memorial circle was renovated just a few years ago. They reduced it from like three lanes to two lanes, with a side brick lane thing on the side.

When the renovations are going to occur anyways, doing redesign to make the route safer is all but a deminimis cost.

I was talking about the crossing of GWP there. It’s one of those can’t really go through it so it’s under or over that remain options. Over’s probably cheaper. Under $10 million and it’s not so much a pricetag issue I suspect as much as it is a priority level issue. Either someone on the committees of jurisdiction really wants it or someone highup at Interior/NPS wants it.

[SpokeGrenadeSR]

how about a couple of those massive speedbumps that are all over arlington’s suburbs? just leave the wheel ruts out of them and drivers can either bottom out or slow down. most people going over speedbumps don’t understand that they have functioning suspensions anyway (i love seeing hummers crawling over speedbumps).

[napes]

Horribly alarming is one comment in the VDOT study that indicates that 72% of individuals surveyed in Virginia were unsure, or actually did not believe that pedestrians/bicyclists had right of way at crosswalks on a trail. One hopes that the individuals who responded to the survey were not typical, but oh my word!

I can’t imagine that more than a few percent of drivers really don’t know that pedestrians have right of way at crosswalks, but maybe ignorance of the law is really widespread.

“The results of the locally distributed surveys revealed differing opinions about who has
the right-of-way at the W&OD Trail intersections. Of those responding, 63 percent thought
motor vehicles have the right-of-way; 28 percent thought trail users; and 8 percent did not know.
These percentages underscore the level of uncertainty about right-of-way at the trail crossing and
prompted a review by the researcher of the Code of Virginia language with respect to crosswalks
and right-of-way laws.”

page 61 of http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_reports/pdf/11-r9.pdf

[KLizotte]

Recently at the FCC bike fair, I cornered the NPS officer there about the horrible crosswalks at Memorial Bridge. I got the usual song and dance that building a tunnel (or bridge) would cost as much as the entire GW Parkway budget for three years. OK, but….look at how much money has been spent on the Mixing Bowl near Springfield, or how about all of the Reinvestment money being spent on the Mall (the draining and repairing of the Reflecting Pool is just such a project). I know none of this is NPS money, it’s just an indication of society’s/Congress’s priorities.

Anyway…this NPS guy claims that there are already plans afoot to reconfigure the roadways south of Memorial Bridge so that one of the crosswalks will be eliminated but still provide access to MVT. I can’t visualize that at all but again, he *claims* that the money has already been informally promised and that ground breaking will occur in *2012*. So maybe there will be a small improvement but I’m not gonna hold my breath. I told him that was all well and good but putting a crosswalk on a freakin’ highway is a really bad, bad idea. Now I know I can’t blame a foot soldier in the NPS and he was only repeating the party line but to sum what he said is this: The GW Parkway has a hodgepodge of regulations and rules that have been passed by Congress, the VDOT, the state of VA, NPS, etc. It’s a patchwork and is not consistent. The entire Arlington Circle and entrance to Arlington Cemetary has its own set of congressional regulations regarding historical/beauty requirements and putting in a bridge/tunnel would somehow be against those ordinances. He said the Cemetary has been lobbying for putting in various security measures like gates but has been turned down for this reason. I then asked him how is it that NPS can reconfigure the roads if these rules are so strict? I didn’t get an answer. Anyway, he claims that the only way we can get tunnels or bridges is via an act of Congress. Now that I don’t doubt.

[americancyclo]

Might be horribly alarming, but not really surprising if you travel these intersections on a daily basis.

[baiskeli]

@napes 19445 wrote:

Horribly alarming is one comment in the VDOT study that indicates that 72% of individuals surveyed in Virginia were unsure, or actually did not believe that pedestrians/bicyclists had right of way at crosswalks on a trail. One hopes that the individuals who responded to the survey were not typical, but oh my word!

I can’t imagine that more than a few percent of drivers really don’t know that pedestrians have right of way at crosswalks, but maybe ignorance of the law is really widespread.

“The results of the locally distributed surveys revealed differing opinions about who has
the right-of-way at the W&OD Trail intersections. Of those responding, 63 percent thought
motor vehicles have the right-of-way; 28 percent thought trail users; and 8 percent did not know.
These percentages underscore the level of uncertainty about right-of-way at the trail crossing and
prompted a review by the researcher of the Code of Virginia language with respect to crosswalks
and right-of-way laws.”

page 61 of http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_reports/pdf/11-r9.pdf

Thanks for this post.

I think part of the confusion is that it’s more complicated than either party having the right of way, as I’ve learned myself after thinking this through and reading about it.

In the absence of stop signs, a motor vehicle has the right of way when it doesn’t have time to stop. A ped/cyclist cannot just jump out in front in that situation. This is obviously common sense anyway. A ped/cyclist has the right-of-way when he/she decides it is safe, and goes into the crosswalk. Cars then must give way. This is also just common sense. It boils down to doing what’s safe anyway.

Or at least that’s how I understand it. I’m sure there are people here who know it better than I do. I hadn’t thought that much about it even after years of cycling. I can imagine many people who drive think even less.

[dasgeh]

The most low hanging fruit on this road is to ENFORCE THE SPEED LIMIT. It’s an absolute joke. I believe it’s 25mph here, but driving that slowly is a hazard, because no one does. We’re all used to speed cameras now — install them with great fanfare, and everyone will be safer.

@baiskeli 19469 wrote:

In the absence of stop signs, a motor vehicle has the right of way when it doesn’t have time to stop. A ped/cyclist cannot just jump out in front in that situation. This is obviously common sense anyway. A ped/cyclist has the right-of-way when he/she decides it is safe, and goes into the crosswalk. Cars then must give way. This is also just common sense. It boils down to doing what’s safe anyway.

Or at least that’s how I understand it. I’m sure there are people here who know it better than I do. I hadn’t thought that much about it even after years of cycling. I can imagine many people who drive think even less.

This actually misstates the law. The law in DC is that drivers must STOP for pedestrians crossing using a crosswalk. When exactly a ped is “crossing” isn’t clear, but once someone is in the crosswalk, “stop” is pretty clear”. The law in VA is that peds in the crosswalk have the right of way. Peds also have a duty to not jump out in front of cars (I forget the exact wording). However, if the ped ignores their duty, the law isn’t written to negate the right of way. Of course, the law is not enforced as written. (As written in VA, there’s a crosswalk implied at every intersection where speeds are 35 or under, regardless of paint on the street).

Sorry I can’t look up the cites now, but they’ve been cited to on the forum enough times, they should be easy to find.

[baiskeli]

@dasgeh 19470 wrote:

The most low hanging fruit on this road is to ENFORCE THE SPEED LIMIT. It’s an absolute joke. I believe it’s 25mph here, but driving that slowly is a hazard, because no one does. We’re all used to speed cameras now — install them with great fanfare, and everyone will be safer.[/CODE]

Yep. Except it may actually be cheaper to put in passive speed controls than stationing an officer there all day.

With regard to the law – whatever it may be, it’s clearly more complicated than “X has the right of way.”

[Author]

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